• This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn more.

Balance WFTO 1.3

BlackBeard

Firebreather
Mar 21, 2015
420
84
270
29
Italy
#1
I decided to open this thread to give opportunities to players (old and new) to express their opinion on the state of balance (Patch 1.3).

My opinion about

The game is definitely more balanced with respect to the patch 1.0, but there are some basic problems that have remained ...

- Spam workers. I think this is the cause of many problems:
1) the walls are dug too quickly, this makes the rush the most effective solution.
2) Spam workers makes unnecessary the use of traps because you better have some more worker, that some trap.
3) the level of workers is unnecessary at the current state, workers at level 1 are already very efficient.

- The sins are produced too quickly, this makes the rush the most rapid and effective.

- Slaughterpen produces too fast micropiglets. Once created the 5x5 room is able to handle any kind of army(or almost).

- The payday is completely useless, a large army costs 1000 gold in 10 minutes.

- Free gold, there are too many ways to produce gold (mining, spells, potions, rituals), the economy of the game is broken ... there is no resource management, spam gold for the entire time. In 100 hours of game I have never been without gold ^^"

(sorry for fast translation by google)
 

Fireeye

Augre
WFTO Backer
Dec 30, 2012
1,155
687
515
Ze Germany
#2
Regarding the worker issue
1. WftO workers already dig and claim tiles significantly slower than DK I/DK II imps.
2. I can agree with this to an extend. As things are, defensive players sacrifice a strong economy for their defenses, while offensive players can rush with a good economy.
3. Ironically enough, workers initially did not level up at all and were meant as a quickly replacable resource. Then people wouldn't stop whining about it becase muh nostalgia and workers were given the ability to level up as in DK I/DK II

Agree on the sins things, it's much to fast. You usually unlock rooms faster than you can actually build them.

The slaughterpen issue is debatable. I can understand that a 5x5 slaughterpen should only feed so many minions, but as building space is as much of a resource as gold on many maps (and you also need at least 3x5 for a tavern if you want to keep your intelligent minions happy), having to build larger slaughterpens could be frustrating.

On the payday issue: I'd rather not have all of my gold vaporize into thin air at every payday.

On the gold issue: I can agree in the sense that to many maps have to many gold shrines (including some of my maps), but you also have maps like Mask of the Betrayer where natural gold veins are pretty sparse and you have to rely on potions or rituals to get more gold if your enemy holds thee central gold shrine.
 
Jan 3, 2013
3,245
739
495
31
#3
Imp spam is the problem indeed. You either counter it with your own imp spam or just build new walls on the way - traps can't keep them away, not to mention you need to protect those traps from enemies.

Sin generation is high because obey does buff cultists or any other researcher in the archive. Tbh, I think obey shouldn't do so, it should simply prevent them from leaving their workplace, not just inject them with steroids.

Slaughterpen is insignificant. It barely decides anything since creatures are satisfied way to easily. A small 3x5 slaughterpen and 3x5 tavern is enough to keep an army happy. Not sure how devs plan to deal with this - afaik there are some engine limitations, so you can't just make some creatures eat more than another.

Payday can be ignored. Creatures don't get upset much if you don't pay them. In fact, they get more upset when they are denied of sleep or food, lack of gold can be solved with rally flag.
 
Aug 18, 2015
569
88
310
17
#4
- Spam workers. I think this is the cause of many problems:
1) the walls are dug too quickly, this makes the rush the most effective solution.
2) Spam workers makes unnecessary the use of traps because you better have some more worker, that some trap.
3) the level of workers is unnecessary at the current state, workers at level 1 are already very efficient.
For me it's fine how it is, but if they tweak some of this stuff I wouldn't dislike it, because I'm flexible at this point.

1) Earth, Rocky Earth and Augrum Wall are dug pretty quickly when they aren't reenforced, yes. But they are almost unbreachable when they you reenforce them.
Personally, I like that Earth can be dug out quickly.
In my opinion, Reenforced Walls should be that strong as it is now, but that normal Rocky Earth and Augrum Walls needs more HP from start on.
So that strong Walls are allways taff and do not need that long to reenforce and I like Earth how it is.

2)I think Defenses are just hard to play or perhaps most players aren't used to them, bcause they lock mana, because they cost Gold and because they do not move.
But they do really do not lock much mana. (1 Imps = 3 Bombards)
They are a damn good support in when you're fighting, even when you have 1 Defence (Expect of Gargoyle & Blade Lotus)
I think Defenses are worse it, you just need to know where to build them. Or force your Opponent to attack your defenses ;D

3)It's fine for me. I agree with Fireeye.

- The sins are produced too quickly, this makes the rush the most rapid and effective.
Creating Sins is indeed, very fast, due to "Obey" and "Work-A-Lot". But when you allready have many Sins reasearched, it will be harder to get. I think it's so damn fast, to make it beginner-friendly. Good Players know how to generate them fast, but a Beginner won't think about it.
But I agree with Fireeye again. You unlock Sins faster as you can spend them AT THE BEGINNNG.

I don't think that, changes in this area would change anything. Because we will still "Obey" our cultists and use "Work-A-Lot" on them.
Perhaps increase the research time, to not get "overflooded" with sins, to be over dramatic.

- Slaughterpen produces too fast micropiglets. Once created the 5x5 room is able to handle any kind of army(or almost).
I'm totally fine with the Slaughterpen behaviour. Why do you build a 5x5 Slaughter pen? Just build 3x3 or 3x5 and multible ones, it reduces the walk way for your minions.
And if 1 5x5 Slauhter Pen can handle your Army, that's great. So you have 2 ways to feed your Minions.

- The payday is completely useless, a large army costs 1000 gold in 10 minutes.
I never really liked the Payday feature in DK2. And Stronger Minions getting pissed faster when you aren't able to pay them. So that's fine for me.

- Free gold, there are too many ways to produce gold (mining, spells, potions, rituals), the economy of the game is broken ... there is no resource management, spam gold for the entire time. In 100 hours of game I have never been without gold ^^"
I think the Gold-function factor is pretty good, or I just like it, or perhaps both?
Everything does cost a much gold. I think. If you aren't able to generate Gold, you would need way mroe Gold in Maps, you would need to rebalance the costs of the Rooms, Potions, etc., to Zergrush would be the most resonable way to go, it wouldn't be able to play passive.

So no, I like the Idea to generate Gold, and it can be a good boost to have it as well, and not to be completly helpless, if you are without a Goldshrine.



I just want to talk about Rush tactics and the Behemoth.

Personally, I don't think that the Behemoth Rush is that good. The Beheoth is just the most usefull Titan at the beginning, that's it.
Further to, the Behemoth Rush only works in certain Maps. Mostly a "modified version" of the Behemoth Rush is better.
And when you're able to keep the Rush away from you, long enought (3-5 minutes or so), you will defeat him.
You can do so with Replacement Earth, then prepare with Ember Demons or/and defenses, perhaps some Quick Freezes.

I just think rushing is most attractive, because otherwise the game will lag out, and that sux balls!
I also think playing passive should be improved a bit.
Decrease the time to reenforce walls, but make them less strong. Perhaps a Tile Upgrade, could make them stronger. So that you can can desice which Walls will be hard to breach.


Edit 1:
Also Besiege and the Siege Shrine should get an upgrade.
They stuff be way mroe effective.
 
Last edited:

JulianB3000

Dwarven Worker
Dec 26, 2015
22
5
25
#5
I play single-player, because I dislike zerg rushing in these games.

In that context, I agree with a few things Blackbeard says.

Sins are really quick. Too quick.

Payday - great idea, but ineffective at current wages. Minion minimum wage should be increased; just think what the poor things must be paying in health insurance!
Gold isn't really a limit. I can run a dungeon on just a ritual, or just blood money. I am constantly being told to build a larger vault. Payday could cost double without it impacting my cashflow.
I'd like gold to enforce choices - I never have to decide whether to build one room or another due to budget. Just build both!
 
Oct 25, 2015
43
15
175
#6
In my experience the imps are a pain in the arse, but they add a good challenge when trying to expand. For me difficult imps justify having immediate access to lightning.

For me Sins are too quick, whether you know how to inrease the research rate or not. I know it's been slowed before, I would slow it down and also maybe rearrange the sins to move a few rooms further down, perhaps adjust so the central vein isn't affected by the other 2.

I must agree that the payday mechanism is a bit superfluous at the momen, though it should be easily tweakable over time. You feel it most in DK when you can't afford to train creatures. Now you only feel it when making rooms so the mid to late game isn't really affected. Again a few minor tweaks may eventually make all the difference here.

Regarding gold generation I like how you can generate gold but I think it is a bit easy. Blood Money gives too much imo. The ritual method I think is well balanced, takes time and doesn't give an excessive amount. The spell has obviously been adjusted to give less, on balance I think it works well.

I certainly appreciate the position of the Devs as changing any one of these variables could dramatically change the dynamic of the game. By that I mean gold generation seems excessive now, but up payday amounts or make minions vandalise or leave when unpaid and suddenly blood money and Avarice become lifesavers.
 
Likes: JulianB3000
Top Bottom