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Did not deliver what was promised

Rejuvenation

Dwarven Worker
Apr 3, 2015
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#21
tin foil hat loonies.
A little subtlety gets you a long way, huh?

It's not as if I think Steam is necessarily a "bad" thing or anything like that, but as a consumer, I should not require a seperate account to play my games on besides my account for the actual game, nor should I require a connection just to play the game if it is not solely a multiplayer game. Not to mention what simply giving a single distribution platform something that is practically a monopoly on a silver platter could do in the long run, but I digress. Besides that, I have an issue with it because of my line of work, but that's more of a personal gripe. Honestly, I don't understand why so many people are completely okay with it.

This is getting off-topic, though. We should probably create another thread if you really want to discuss this.
 
Likes: Hailstoned

SlyGoat

Firebreather
May 18, 2013
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Florida
#22
A little subtlety gets you a long way, huh?

It's not as if I think Steam is necessarily a "bad" thing or anything like that, but as a consumer, I should not require a seperate account to play my games on besides my account for the actual game, nor should I require a connection just to play the game if it is not solely a multiplayer game. Not to mention what simply giving a single distribution platform something that is practically a monopoly on a silver platter could do in the long run, but I digress. Besides that, I have an issue with it because of my line of work, but that's more of a personal gripe. Honestly, I don't understand why so many people are completely okay with it.

This is getting off-topic, though. We should probably create another thread if you really want to discuss this.
Funny, one of the reasons you dislike Steam is one of the main reason I like it. Why would you prefer having a different account for every single game you play? It peeves me when a game is released on Steam and then requires me to create an account for that game. Most games just integrate with Steamworks to use your Steam account.

Also, you don't require a connection to play any game on Steam. You need to connect to Steam once to authenticate your game license... but you need to connect to download the game anyway, so I don't see how that could possibly be an inconvenience for you. Also as far as not liking Steam because of your line of work... again I wonder why. Are you a developer? Because from my experience with Steam they take a 30% cut and are very helpful with the distribution process. Compared to a traditional retailer who may take upwards of 60% or more.

Yes Valve is a big scary monopoly, but that has more to do with all other digital distributors being inexplicably shitty than anything. Honestly, I don't understand why so many people aren't okay with it. If something better came along Steam would die overnight; this is traditionally how everything on the internet works. I mean, when's the last time you knew someone with a MySpace account? And not too long ago they had a monopoly on social networking.
 

Rejuvenation

Dwarven Worker
Apr 3, 2015
10
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#23
Funny, one of the reasons you dislike Steam is one of the main reason I like it. Why would you prefer having a different account for every single game you play? It peeves me when a game is released on Steam and then requires me to create an account for that game. Most games just integrate with Steamworks to use your Steam account.

Also, you don't require a connection to play any game on Steam. You need to connect to Steam once to authenticate your game license... but you need to connect to download the game anyway, so I don't see how that could possibly be an inconvenience for you. Also as far as not liking Steam because of your line of work... again I wonder why. Are you a developer? Because from my experience with Steam they take a 30% cut and are very helpful with the distribution process. Compared to a traditional retailer who may take upwards of 60% or more.

Yes Valve is a big scary monopoly, but that has more to do with all other digital distributors being inexplicably shitty than anything. Honestly, I don't understand why so many people aren't okay with it. If something better came along Steam would die overnight; this is traditionally how everything on the internet works. I mean, when's the last time you knew someone with a MySpace account? And not too long ago they had a monopoly on social networking.
When a game is released on Steam, it doesn't automatically mean you can use Steam to play it as well. Look at Lord of the Rings Online, for instance. Yes, you can download it from Steam, but it doesn't connect your Steam account to the game itself. Luckily, though, that also has a DRM-free download on its website. On top of that, I could not have logged on to this forum using my Steam account, could I?

Even just connecting that first time can be frustrating as I'm on the road quite a lot. I remember having bought Shadow of Mordor a couple of months ago, only to find out I couldn't actually play the game until I'd connected to a hotspot around where I was at that time. As for my occupation.. close but no cigar, and I honestly wouldn't want to start bragging about it to someone who worked on one of my favourite games :)

There was a discussion on this topic a little while ago concerning Hatred. Something about how people were calling out for Valve to set up proper moral guidelines and actually start regulating what kind of content could pass on that level. While I don't like or respect what Hatred is trying to do from a marketing perspective, having Valve decide on regulations for what kind of games they'll actually be distributing is... disturbing.
 

SlyGoat

Firebreather
May 18, 2013
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Florida
#24
When a game is released on Steam, it doesn't automatically mean you can use Steam to play it as well. Look at Lord of the Rings Online, for instance. Yes, you can download it from Steam, but it doesn't connect your Steam account to the game itself. Luckily, though, that also has a DRM-free download on its website. On top of that, I could not have logged on to this forum using my Steam account, could I?
I didn't say it was true in all cases, just the majority. My point being, I play a LARGE number of online games through Steam, and if I did not play them through Steam I would require an account for every single one of them, whereas at the moment I require an account for only a few (usually, MMORPGs that were released outside of Steam and then ported over). Also, LotRO is an online-only game... I think by definition it cannot be "DRM-free". LotRO has no OUTSIDE DRM, but it still requires you to be online to play, even if you're not in a party with anyone and just questing solo, as is typical of MMOs (so typical that it isn't considered DRM, it's just how the game works - as many functions are server side only). Diablo 2, on the other hand, would be considered truly DRM-free, because you could play the offline mode limitlessly and jump into online sessions at a whim, or even bypass Battle.net and play direct through IP or LAN; whereas Diablo 3 does not (did not? I actually haven't followed up to see if they ever 'fixed' that, but it seems unlikely) allow this luxury, forcing you to always be online to play, even if you're playing totally solo much like an MMO. Which is far more intrusive DRM than Steam which, again, does not actually force you to be always online to play anything (unless, obviously, it's an online game). Furthermore some games you can download through Steam and launch from your Steam install folder without launching Steam at all.

Even just connecting that first time can be frustrating as I'm on the road quite a lot. I remember having bought Shadow of Mordor a couple of months ago, only to find out I couldn't actually play the game until I'd connected to a hotspot around where I was at that time. As for my occupation.. close but no cigar, and I honestly wouldn't want to start bragging about it to someone who worked on one of my favourite games :)

There was a discussion on this topic a little while ago concerning Hatred. Something about how people were calling out for Valve to set up proper moral guidelines and actually start regulating what kind of content could pass on that level. While I don't like or respect what Hatred is trying to do from a marketing perspective, having Valve decide on regulations for what kind of games they'll actually be distributing is... disturbing.
Again I don't really see how you intend to install these games if you can't connect to the service. I understand that some games are sold boxed but still require a Steam account to play, but you should realize that is because (in the majority of cases, I cannot say all - it's clearly not the case for WftO, since they did promise a DRM-free version) the developers are using Steam specifically as a DRM solution. Shadow of Mordor, for example, would have no need for Steam as a service platform - if they chose not to make their product available on Steam it would almost certainly have its own DRM and require you to log in and validate your product, and said DRM would likely be more intrusive than Steam.

As for the subject of Valve's monopoly allowing them too much power over the market and what is/isn't successful, I totally agree. That should be a concern. But again, their track record shows that they don't want to police the store. That has good and bad sides. The good side is they are lenient on what they allow directly in the store and created Greenlight specifically to get more games that otherwise wouldn't have been considered in; the bad side is primarily that as a result of their leniency we get a lot of horrible games. And also some odd, questionable ones you wouldn't really expect to see on Steam, such as the growing trend lately of adult visual novels with the adult content cut out being released on Steam, and people buying them and patching the removed content back in, just because they want to own the game on Steam. Which, even as a major supporter of Steam, I find baffling - not the existence of these games, nor their existence on steam without or, indeed, even with the questionable content, just the fact that people feel the need to have all of their games on Steam to such a high degree.

And questionable content seems like a perfect segue into the subject of Hatred, since the violence and, indeed, 'hatred' in that game are nothing new to videogames, and absolutely nothing new to videogames released on Steam. The removal of that game from Greenlight was confirmed as a kneejerk reaction from someone which was rectified and an apology even issued from GabeN essentially saying taking things down for reasons of questionable content (except in the case of pornographic content which is certainly nothing new to our sexually repressed society, though they don't seem to care that adult patches from the aforementioned VNs are often offered by the game's own developers with links posted on the Steam forums themselves) is not and has never been Valve's policy. So as far as the censorship issue I'm not too concerned and, once again, the major problem here is simply that there are no other good digital distribution platforms out there, which is why any game that finds itself 'banned' from Steam is going to have a hard time selling copies even if they did find another distributor - which, by the way, I find unlikely; anything Steam sees fit to ban will probably not be welcome on, say, Origin; I certainly don't anticipate Origin approaching the developers of Hatred and asking to sell their game.
 
#25
On top of that, I could not have logged on to this forum using my Steam account, could I?
Actually you totally can! This website along with several other game sites offer a "sign in with Steam" feature. If you already have an account made on here it will link the two and make signing in easier as well as help you better keep track of the community within the steam client. If you do not have a account on this site already it will take you through the process with less questions to fill out and "automagically" link the accounts for you!
 

Triscopic

Crackpot
Backer
Dec 11, 2012
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United Kingdom (Great Britain)
#26
Guys, take a breath. Personally I don't care much about DRM free vs Steam, but we all know there are people who do. The point here is people who care were promised they could have that. Simb has replied that it's not been forgotten, rather that they still have higher priorities and that having everyone on Steam right now makes bug catching and fixing easier.

Everyone has a right to their opinion and to expect to receive something they paid for. Despite the... problems... around launch, I trust SG to put things right over the coming weeks, now they can, you know, afford to buy groceries and go back to eating and stuff.
 
Likes: Hailstoned

Koiju

Spirit
Backer
Feb 26, 2013
4
5
120
#27
Guys, take a breath. Personally I don't care much about DRM free vs Steam, but we all know there are people who do. The point here is people who care were promised they could have that. Simb has replied that it's not been forgotten, rather that they still have higher priorities and that having everyone on Steam right now makes bug catching and fixing easier.

Everyone has a right to their opinion and to expect to receive something they paid for. Despite the... problems... around launch, I trust SG to put things right over the coming weeks, now they can, you know, afford to buy groceries and go back to eating and stuff.
^ What this guy said ^

I'm on the other side of the fence in that I refuse to use steam, my reasons are my own and I have no intention of trying to 'convert' or 'convince' anyone else, we all have the right to our opinions. I also understand that SG is working on it, and I am patient :) I shall await their release of the DRM free copy. I'm just happy they are releasing one at all, not every company does these days!
 
Likes: Triscopic
Jan 10, 2014
38
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Parts Unknown
#28
having Valve decide on regulations for what kind of games they'll actually be distributing is... disturbing.
They built the system why would they not get to set the rules for using it? As it is they've decided to set minimal restrictions for greenlight indie games, from their FAQ:

http://steamcommunity.com//workshop/about/?appid=765&section=faq said:
Are there any restrictions on what can be posted?
Your game must not contain offensive material or violate copyright or intellectual property rights.
@Koiju Steam is just a (very) convenient download client for games, and gives developers an easy way to protect their game. Waiting for a game to be DRM free before playing it seems like a strange requirement, maybe I'm not seeing the big picture here but this thread has so far failed to provide any answers.
 

Koiju

Spirit
Backer
Feb 26, 2013
4
5
120
#29
@Koiju Steam is just a (very) convenient download client for games, and gives developers an easy way to protect their game. Waiting for a game to be DRM free before playing it seems like a strange requirement, maybe I'm not seeing the big picture here but this thread has so far failed to provide any answers.
Regardless of whether you understand or agree, it is my reason, I do not need your approval :p
But since you are being polite I will give you at least some answer, I am against a number of aspects of DRM, and morally against DRM as a whole. I choose to exercise my right to vote against the existence of DRM (I include Steam as a form of DRM) in the only way I can, by voting with my wallet. I am aware I am 'giving up' on a great many games by choosing to never purchase games without DRM free copies (and then only using/buying/downloading the DRM free version, in cases such as this) but that is my choice to make. I don't expect others to understand, only to respect my right to have my opinion and do what I want with my money :) (and I'd be very grateful if more companies made DRM free copies available :D)

Basically, I choose to vote against DRM for the same reason you would choose to vote for one political party over another, or choose not to do something you consider to be morally wrong. It is your right to exercise that freedom, even if others don't understand why you'd choose it. Some may feel that it is a 'wasted vote' (since there is no actual vote really) but I stick to my guns, always have, it's part of how I define who I am.

EDIT: Just thought of a better analogy, it's like being a vegetarian, choosing to give up on meat because you consider it to be wrong. I am not a vegetarian myself, but I understand that those that are do it for their own reasons, and they are entitled to that freedom of choice. I am basically a DRMfree-itarian... or something :p
 
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Apr 6, 2015
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#30
I mean Steam doesn't even work on my current computer and I have no idea why which is why I was afraid that I had been lied to but luckily it seems I'll just have to wait a bit longer so I'll live.
 
Sep 18, 2014
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Kanga Land
#31
except in the case of pornographic content which is certainly nothing new to our sexually repressed society,
We're talking about Japan now?

Whilst I agree on one level as a feminist, I somehow feel we don't see eye-to-eye at all and thus have to beg the question as to why any straight male in the western world feels sexually repressed. Honestly, of all parties, any repression for that party that I could name would be instantly deemed as bias conjecture (and not having a society laden with pornography is certainly not 'sexual oppression' - particularly given we're getting as close to it as we can, and as it's mostly all in the interest/for the audience of a single sexual disposition *cough you cough*).

DIGRESSIONS. I couldn't help myself. But seriously, I just made a huge assumption that you're male and straight, but any statement so large is surely said in the vein of the majority - and that implication is non-negotiable. Gigity.

Edit: SlyGoat - male, 23, USA. SEEMS I'M PRETTY CLOSE TO IN THE CLEAR.
 
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SlyGoat

Firebreather
May 18, 2013
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#32
We're talking about Japan now?
Maybe "species" would've been a more applicable term than "society". Or perhaps we aren't repressed sexually so much as indoctrinated to accept violence and mayhem on a basal level. Whatever the case the fact that people will defend to the death Hatred's right to exist and be distributed on Steam - a game that is literally about meaningless spree killing and slaughter for the sake of itself - but nobody's up in arms about Steam's total ban on anything overtly sexual seems like a good indicator to me of where we're at.
 
Likes: InaneDugong
Sep 18, 2014
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Kanga Land
#34
Maybe "species" would've been a more applicable term than "society". Or perhaps we aren't repressed sexually so much as indoctrinated to accept violence and mayhem on a basal level. Whatever the case the fact that people will defend to the death Hatred's right to exist and be distributed on Steam - a game that is literally about meaningless spree killing and slaughter for the sake of itself - but nobody's up in arms about Steam's total ban on anything overtly sexual seems like a good indicator to me of where we're at.
Do keep in mind we're talking about America (Valve) - where you'll never see a penis on Hollywood film but violence on the tier of Saw and beyond is perfectly reasonable. America sort of has a numbness towards violence at this point. In general I'm quite against gratuitous violence--even the torture chamber in wfto has to be taken as a tongue-in-cheek satire of assimilation for it not to be over-the-top (I struggle with it nonetheless, particularly since this justification is somewhat wishful thinking).

For comparison's sake, many titles ported to Australia usually have the censorship redone the other way around, I. E. Nudity/sex is more acceptable but violence isn't.

The Western world does differ on these moralities. I do agree though that violence in entertainment requires some kind of indoctrination to overlook as fantasy.
 

James Hale

Templar
Backer
Jan 12, 2013
171
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Purgatory
steamcommunity.com
#35
I saw TB's video about the game last night. I played sandbox for about an hour, just kind of messing around with building rooms and see what the creatures were, but there was no way to find out anything about them, what they did or how you attract them. I'm glad to see hotfixes being pushed out (whenever I start Steam I always seem to have an update for WFTO) but I'm going to give it a few weeks until I start the campaign.

I hope you guys get this stuff sorted ASAP, because right now it definitely feels like an Early Access title.
 

Lord of Riva

The Lord
Founder
Dec 29, 2012
2,786
923
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#36
We're talking about Japan now?

Whilst I agree on one level as a feminist, I somehow feel we don't see eye-to-eye at all and thus have to beg the question as to why any straight male in the western world feels sexually repressed. Honestly, of all parties, any repression for that party that I could name would be instantly deemed as bias conjecture (and not having a society laden with pornography is certainly not 'sexual oppression' - particularly given we're getting as close to it as we can, and as it's mostly all in the interest/for the audience of a single sexual disposition *cough you cough*).

DIGRESSIONS. I couldn't help myself. But seriously, I just made a huge assumption that you're male and straight, but any statement so large is surely said in the vein of the majority - and that implication is non-negotiable. Gigity.

Edit: SlyGoat - male, 23, USA. SEEMS I'M PRETTY CLOSE TO IN THE CLEAR.
while i dont really have the time to go into a lenghy discussion (nor do i think we need to, because all of this has been stated around a million times) i absolutely agree that sexuality is still a very repressed topic, it is not important if you male or female in that regard, repression is repression even though it may be different levels of it depending on gender and sexual orientation. I do not know, im neither american nor female, i am however bisexual.

Here in germany we have it the other way around, Violence is such a huge issue while open sexuality isnt as much, from my point of view i think at some point, eg when we reach the age we are adults, we shouldnt be censored at all for both, being adult means we are able to make our own decisions and this "morality" a society presses unto people is not really needed for. (im not saying that there arent instance where this censorship should happen, mainly if it advertises something illegal as something legal (that definition is pretty simple, i hope you have an idea which cases im refering too) )

In the same Vein i just dont think being a feminits is worthwile, i try to look at the picture as a whole that includes the issues feminists have but is not exclusive to those. As long as pornography or sexuality is still controversial in a way that you it gets censored to a mature audience we have not yet reached the point were we should be, imho.

That said, i will now stop talking about the issue HERE. and i would like to ask you to do the same, if needs be feel free to open a new thread, thank you for your understanding and sorry at the others for hijacking this thread myself somewhat :p
 

mishko

Witch Doctor
Founder
Feb 27, 2012
866
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Michigan
#37
while i dont really have the time to go into a lenghy discussion (nor do i think we need to, because all of this has been stated around a million times) i absolutely agree that sexuality is still a very repressed topic, it is not important if you male or female in that regard, repression is repression even though it may be different levels of it depending on gender and sexual orientation. I do not know, im neither american nor female, i am however bisexual.

Here in germany we have it the other way around, Violence is such a huge issue while open sexuality isnt as much, from my point of view i think at some point, eg when we reach the age we are adults, we shouldnt be censored at all for both, being adult means we are able to make our own decisions and this "morality" a society presses unto people is not really needed for. (im not saying that there arent instance where this censorship should happen, mainly if it advertises something illegal as something legal (that definition is pretty simple, i hope you have an idea which cases im refering too) )

In the same Vein i just dont think being a feminits is worthwile, i try to look at the picture as a whole that includes the issues feminists have but is not exclusive to those. As long as pornography or sexuality is still controversial in a way that you it gets censored to a mature audience we have not yet reached the point were we should be, imho.

That said, i will now stop talking about the issue HERE. and i would like to ask you to do the same, if needs be feel free to open a new thread, thank you for your understanding and sorry at the others for hijacking this thread myself somewhat :p
I don't understand feminists logic. Woman do porn because they want to and feminists don't have the right to speak for all women. And women aren't the only people that do porn.
 

Randy19

Firebreather
Apr 16, 2014
227
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Germany
#40
Do keep in mind we're talking about America (Valve) - where you'll never see a penis on Hollywood film but violence on the tier of Saw and beyond is perfectly reasonable. America sort of has a numbness towards violence at this point. In general I'm quite against gratuitous violence--even the torture chamber in wfto has to be taken as a tongue-in-cheek satire of assimilation for it not to be over-the-top (I struggle with it nonetheless, particularly since this justification is somewhat wishful thinking).

For comparison's sake, many titles ported to Australia usually have the censorship redone the other way around, I. E. Nudity/sex is more acceptable but violence isn't.

The Western world does differ on these moralities. I do agree though that violence in entertainment requires some kind of indoctrination to overlook as fantasy.
The Torture Chamber in WFTO is fine. You're the bad guy. It's not getting justified as "as long as the result is fine the good guys can do as they wish" because quiet frankly, you're not the good guy.
 
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