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Dragons dont fit?

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Jan 3, 2013
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#42
OK, so far we have: Socialist Dragons, Rainbow (RGB) Dragons, Cute Dragons, Vegetable Dragons, Ancient Dragons ...

See! I said Dragons has so many variations, even that we couldn't expect. :D
Yet these dragons wouldn't fit well into the game due to their type.

WFTO needs dragons that can dwell under the ground for Overlord and could use various kind of dragons that could be tamed for Empire. This excludes painted, sissy-looking ones and of course vegetarian ones who prefer mushrooms over juicy creatures.
 
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Amon

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Apr 14, 2012
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#43
Yet these dragons wouldn't fit well into the game due to their type.

WFTO needs dragons that can dwell under the ground for Overlord and could use various kind of dragons that could be tamed for Empire. This excludes painted, sissy-looking ones and of course vegetarian ones who prefer mushrooms over juicy creatures.
No vegetarian ones, definitely. I have never heard of them. Dragons either eat flesh (Western) or don't actually seem to need to eat at all (Eastern)... Maybe a Wyrm?
 

Castigator

Gargoyle
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Dec 30, 2012
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#44
There is no rule, that says smaller dragons can't be nasty. I imagine, that the Bluefire Drake's tactic involves to close the distance to the enemy via gas-dash, grab him, so he can't escape and melt his face. Apperently carbon doesn't melt until 3600°C, so there's nothing to contain the molten face, that wouldn't melt aswell, but that's why I think the BF-Drake is so friggin awesome.
We can try to flesh the creature's lore details out as much as possible, but if anyone complains, that the dragon still doesn't fit into your dungeon, even after we pointed out, that the dragon has a place in a dungeon, I am not above using the "Rule of Cool".
Personally, I'd like more people to contribute to the original suggestion, as we can always use concepts.
Or people, who know how to operate Blender. Or someone, who could link a tutorial, that tells me how to operate Blender.
 
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Dec 14, 2012
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#49
After quick deliberation, by which I mean I've "only read the first post of this thread", I must (possibly) re-inform the thread underlords that there are different species of dragons in lore (have you not seen 'How to train your dragon'?), so obviously dragons can fit into this (dungeon/game).

The idea of not having Dragons in a DnD inspired concept is as ridiculous as believing certain creatures should be 'fan-service'.:D
 

Ben Chandler

Impassibly Cool
WFTO Backer
Jan 23, 2013
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#50
I like the baby dragon idea. Call them whelps.
Could even be implemented into campaign. You're under siege by heroes, but you are aware of dragon whelplings that are trapped; save them and the dragon queen will sweep the overworld incinerating the towns above ending the barrage of Templars descending upon you. Leaving you breathing space to take the upper hand and slaughter those remaining. Just cos its goode to be bad.

These whelks lack the ability to incinerate a castle, but if they focus they can send a bout of flame into the face of any invader. And when cornered, the mixture of teeth claws and horns is enough to deter even the most heavily armed heroes of the empire.
 
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Dec 14, 2012
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#51
Dragons should have an AvP'esk feel to them, because Dragons are always the top-dog above all other creatures in lore, they should start as something puny like whelpings, then transform into dragonlings, then become dragons of a certain size. (They'll never outgrow the dungeon whilst you play because after all, they are and will always be very young dragons compared since the time you as an underlord have owned them)
Note: This idea only really works if the creatures will actually have some kind of leveling system, if not that then certain rooms will keep these little critters the space they need to grow.

That would be cool, now obviously you don't do this with every creature its just with the dragon you make the exception because its a dragon and you don't argue with dragons. They're like Scottish people in that way.
 
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RachniKiller

Gargoyle
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Dec 12, 2012
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#52
I say have skeleton dragons,Dragon tend to be to proud, so a mindless animated body with remnants of its former power will have to do. They cant fly their wings have rotten away (maybe make them a neutral mob that's dog up. It would be cool finding a dragon skeleton in the rocks)

 
Dec 14, 2012
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#55
Combine the ideas! You start with a Skeleton Dragon and at a certain point it'll gain its flesh back and become more powerful but and also more vulnerable. Alternatively, perhaps make the choice of transformation from skeleton to flesh an option for the underlord, the cost being-
Skeleton;
Cons: Low Damage, Low Magic Resistance, doesn't 'work' (i.e. archives), no lair. (If it goes down its gone)
Pros: High Health/Armour, High melee blade/range resistance, med blunt resistance, Low Wage

Flesh;
Cons: Low-med Healthy/Armour, Low blunt resistance, medium blade/range, high Wage.
Pros: High damage, High magic resistance, Work output High, has a lair.

Essentially, your sword or shield pawns; pointless against each other but useful in their own right. A player could attempt to have a full force of both these dragons but that would be the easiest game of chess for the opposition when they have bishops, knights and rooks.
 
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Tikuto

Bloodling
Aug 22, 2013
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#56
Each Underlord could have his own single champion unit. A super-unit, a paragon unit like a Balrog or a Dragon that reside in associated rooms big enough over time.
idea 1) e.g. After a long while your Treasury will increase the chance of a Dragon occupying your dungeon and setting up home in your Treasury.
idea 2) e.g. Particular units can advance one level beyond their maximum to become a champion unit, so any unit you have could advanceto become a champion providing the pre-requisites are met.

Note: only one super-unit per Underlord.
 
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Fireeye

Augre
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Dec 30, 2012
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#58
Each Underlord could have his own single champion unit. A super-unit, a paragon unit like a Balrog or a Dragon that reside in rooms big enough over time.
idea 1) e.g. After a long while your Treasury will increase the chance of a Dragon occupying your dungeon and setting up home in your Treasury.
idea 2) e.g. Particular units can advance one level beyond their maximum to become a champion unit, so any unit you have could advanceto become a champion providing the pre-requisites are met.

Note: only one super-unit per Underlord.
We've had many similar ideas (the one dark champion, playing your own Champion á la Ovelord, etc.) . The problems is that having such a hero units would drastically alter the entire gameplay - instead of having the RTS with simulation bits as is currently planned, we'd get something like Warcraft IIII, where battle's generally degraded into quick skirmishes under the motto "Whack the hero"

Also - why are people so obsessed with dragons? This isn't mean as a critique, mind you, but I see nobody yelling "This game needs Trolls", or "This game needs Elves".*


* If your answer is "Because Skyrim, FUS RO DA XDDDDDDDD", I will find out where you live, break into your house and forcefeed you sweetrolls until it stops being funny.
 
Dec 14, 2012
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#59
We've had many similar ideas (the one dark champion, playing your own Champion á la Ovelord, etc.) . The problems is that having such a hero units would drastically alter the entire gameplay - instead of having the RTS with simulation bits as is currently planned, we'd get something like Warcraft IIII, where battle's generally degraded into quick skirmishes under the motto "Whack the hero"

Also - why are people so obsessed with dragons? This isn't mean as a critique, mind you, but I see nobody yelling "This game needs Trolls", or "This game needs Elves".*

* If your answer is "Because Skyrim, FUS RO DA XDDDDDDDD", I will find out where you live, break into your house and forcefeed you sweetrolls until it stops being funny.
It might have something to do with Dungeons and Dragons and the fact that all we have is Dungeons and no Dragons...

But to the idea of a 'Champion Unit' that's a game-breaking mechanic and is the reason why so many RTS' degrade their combat because they each feature a trump card.
  • Warcraft - Hero Unit. - That's how we ended up with DOTA. WFTO isn't another DOTA.
  • Command & Conquer - 'Epic' Unit - MARV and all that were bogus. Before the Epic Unit it was - SuperWeapon - But there was decent limitations on these. - WFTO shouldn't degrade into one-trick-pony strategies.
  • Rise of Nations - Immunity - What was the point in Nuclear Warfare when everyone could just get 'Immunity'? Pointless way to 'balance' - WFTO doesn't need a useless gameplay feature.
  • Dungeon Keeper II - Horned Reaper Summon - There was no way to kill the Horned Reaper you just had to wait for the mana to dry-up and was usually never used because of the poor AI. However, nothing could kill it but it could kill everything.
You could argue that Dungeon Keeper I's Horned Reaper was a 'Champion unit', but it still wasn't 'Overpowered' and you still needed all your other creatures despite having five or more Horned Reapers. (Depending on how many Trolls/Mistresses/Bile Demons you could get)

Champion Units are a joke, its way to give a player without strategy a singular repetitive strategy and it either results in overpowered units that changes how the game is meant to be played (Warcraft), has a one-time make or break endgame result (C&C), becomes a rush-tactic (RoN) or just winds up being a useless feature. (DKII)

You should always ask, "Do we need this?" and if your immediate response isn't a solid "Yes" then its an unnecessary addition.
 

Castigator

Gargoyle
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#60
Mechanically, I think the dragon should stay one of the smaller representatives of his species, as the world burning epic dragons really wouldn't fit on a 1x1 tile. We can have smaller more ambitous dragons, that are willing to enter our service for mutual benefit. It should be regarded as a normal, but powerful and expensive unit.
To answer Fireeye's question: Dragons are the apex predator of most worlds, that are worth to be conquered. They are the primeval force, that civilazation has overcome in order to suvive. The concept of the Chaoskampf means, that a god of a pantheon has to overcome a dragon or sea serpent, in order to gain control over the world. Even christian mythology has the Leviathan as the ur-enemy of god himself. That kind of myth characterizes dragons as the embodiment of chaos. The ancient egyptians didn't really have a word for evil, so they used chaos instead. Dragons therefore represent, what people in general and specifically empires are afraid of. The loss of their precious little order.
The role of Underlords is equally in opposition to the empire, but whether or not we are able to employ dragons also reflects how powerful Underlords are and how afraid the people and their emperor should be. If the dragons have no interest to join forces with Underlords, the underlords are regarded as wimps, who are wannabe evil at best.
If there are no dragons on this world at all, that would, in the eyes of mythology mean, that order has already won and the Underlord's struggle against the world and each other would be a futile one, doomed to failure, with a silver lining on the horizon and the heroes eventual victory as a certainty. I'd like to introduce dragons as a mod, that would eventually be taken into the main game.
In my opinion, dragons are the kind of monster, that is most similar in power and mythological role to the Underlords of WftO, they could form an alliance to bring the empires and their knights in shining armor onto their knees.
This would also enable the introduction of truly epic monsters and heroes on both sides. I'd personally like Slichizard's Valkyrie unit to make an appearance.
 
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