Leveling monsters

[schraer3]

hi everyone,

first of all: congratulations to such a nice game!
it has a lot of potencial and it will be better than dungeon keeper, keep the good work on!

i noticed that you can level up your minions to level 10 with the trainingsroom, arena and the spirit chambers..... personally i think it would be much more exciting if the training/leveling would be more similar as in dungeon keeper 2.
i mean that training the minions in the training room would cost some gold and the level should be limited to level 4. the spirit chamber should just level till level 8 or so and the arena the only way to train your minions to level 10.
it would keep the first encounters on a lesser minion experience level and would bring much more excitement, for the higher levels, which get more difficult to reach, really gonna make THE difference.


it was just a thought, how do you guys think about it?

 

[Fireeye]

IIRC the barracks originally were intended to only let minions level up to Lvl 5, after which they either had to do real combat or fight in the area. However, this was very early and development and eventually got replaced by the current system, probably to emphasize the training difference between beasts and intelligent minions.

 

[AdxUndead]

I prefer it this way. But much later they Might (mighty quest) make changes in the map editor that will allow level parameter setting scenario maps.
However the AI wouldn't lvl minions properly probably. So were they to change it there would be alot of work involved to get AI's to use spirit chambers and arenas. As much as getting them to make traps and use rituals and potions probably.

 

[Simburgur]

There are actually a bunch of changes coming on 1.4 related to this:

• Barracks will get much slower for higher level units (down to 10% speed for 9 > 10)
• Spirit Chamber speed reduced by 4x and cost increased by 4x
• Effectiveness of using actual Spirits in the Spirit chamber increased by 4-5x
• Arena bonus for execution and manual drops increased
• Higher level units will be much stronger than they are right now - something around 2x

 

[Slichizard]

You should really buff arena some other way.

Considering the fact that beasts are the ''meat-shield'' troops, they should be capable of getting levels much quicker than they do right now. Currently, it's not worth to spend any time leveling beasts when you can dedicate that time on normal units.

I notified some of QA members about Torture Chamber and the way it works. Right now this room isn't effective enough - it doesn't scorch units quickly ( or at all ), while converting 1 creature, even by lvl10 succubus or lvl10 inquisitor takes way too much time.

 

[Simburgur]

You should really buff arena some other way.

Considering the fact that beasts are the ''meat-shield'' troops, they should be capable of getting levels much quicker than they do right now. Currently, it's not worth to spend any time leveling beasts when you can dedicate that time on normal units.

• Arena bonus for execution and manual drops increased

Arena is getting buffed and everything else is getting nerfed (aside from the never-used Spirit function).

Torture Chamber is getting sped up too.

 

[Slichizard]

I suppose if arena bug won't happen again and Beastmasters will get some sort of reward for training beasts ( could get a small amount of XP instantly or something ), I might start building slightly larger arena, not just 3x3 for 2 beastmasters.

 

[AdxUndead]

Like, hate, love, like, like. 4X is too much in my opinion. Even 2x is a big change to my strategy. Make the next tournament before this change please.

 

[Simburgur]

To be clear, that's a 4x cost in relation to the amount of XP, not time. So the cost per second has remained the same, you just get 25% the XP of before.

The numbers are still a work in progress, but these changes are geared towards encouraging players to use Spirits as a more reliable use of XP - Spirit Chamber was too fast an easy.

 

[Slichizard]

Like, hate, love, like, like. 4X is too much in my opinion. Even 2x is a big change to my strategy. Make the next tournament before this change please.

This change makes lots of sense actually.

Right now, you can quickly get lvl10 guys as soon as you unlock spirit chamber and get one Witch Doctor. If you own a gold shrine, getting all your major units to lvl10 is the matter of 5 - 10 minutes. Too quick for no real cost.

As for next tournament - too early for that. Game is not yet ready, nor fully balanced.

 

[AdxUndead]

Also as i wrote before won't nerfing the training effectively nerf an already neutered AI? Are you planing to have the AI utilize the other avenues of exp generation.

 

[Slichizard]

Also as i wrote before won't nerfing the training effectively nerf an already neutered AI? Are you planing to have the AI utilize the other avenues of exp generation.

Won't really nerf AI since it will still try to go aggressive early. At later phase AI still will lose to a player who will use Spirit Chamber at full.
I guess it's time AI gets coded to use spirit chamber at some point, as well as more optimized build order, so it doesn't build unnecessary rooms again and again ( like 2nd lair or 2nd slaughter pen and so on ).

 

[AdxUndead]

And as you have said before the aggressive behavior without the trained minons to back it up is counterproductive for it. Also 25 tile of lair is not enough lair. You have been very vocal about how the AI is too easy and now the there will be a bigger distinction between levels this should be a big deal to you yet you seem to be taking a contrary position. I have to wonder if you are trolling.

 

[Slichizard]

And as you have said before the aggressive behavior without the trained minons to back it up is counterproductive for it. Also 25 tile of lair is not enough lair. You have been very vocal about how the AI is too easy and now the there will be a bigger distinction between levels this should be a big deal to you yet you seem to be taking a contrary position. I have to wonder if you are trolling.

Building 2 lairs of 25 or expanding one to 6x6 or more are two different things.

Additionally, AI was never that good with training. The so-called passive training that comes from Barracks is something both players can have without spending any time on it. As for pumping units on Spirit Chamber with gold, so far, only human players can do that. Nerf that barracks will receive won't really matter.

AI requires complete overhaul because it currently isn't properly introduced to new game mechanics and balance. It's more than building rooms and digging gold - it's about how efficient each room will be and how well it will be utilized. You shouldn't worry about changes like these - more will probably come soon. What should concern people is the fact that AI is outdated and requires much more attention, which it won't get in next patch. Such work requires a whole patch of it's own.

 

[Beneathar]

I guess all those changes aren't really final, as they need to be tested by the QA (at least I hope so) and so we will, of course, see how the changes work out.

 

[AdxUndead]

So you don't care because you believe the AI is too broken for another change out of it's favor to matter? It's the only training the AI does. I think it will matter alot.

 

[Slichizard]

So you don't care because you believe the AI is too broken for another change out of it's favor to matter? It's the only training the AI does. I think it will matter alot.

In that case devs should code AI to use other means of training. There's no point in holding back right now because of that.