• This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn more.

WFTO Wednesday #63: The Big Backer Update (2/2)

Oct 17, 2013
181
59
250
38
#41

This is an idea based on Enjou's original idea. Its very rough and open to a lot of fixing. The roots is basically the neutral vein and the other three are the veins of evil. I've just done a brief overview for rooms only. The spells, defenses and rituals are just for flavor.
 
Likes: Reyh!

mishko

Matriarch
WFTO Founder
Feb 27, 2012
866
238
435
26
Michigan
#42
I think I would prefer the kickstarter theme over the founder's theme. I would have to see the VFX on everything to know for sure though.
 

Psycix

Necromancer
WFTO Founder
Jan 9, 2013
834
305
410
#43
I think the main concern people have is that some rooms are too generic and essential to unlock in a tree next to less generic and more fun things.
Usually trees like this allow players to pick between various exotic "things". With normal "things" in the mix, the choice becomes a "normal" vs "exotic". Of course everyone wants to unlock exotic things, so this either forces the player to pick the boring stuff at the cost of what he actually wants to unlock, or chooses the cool stuff and runs into gameplay problems due to lack of the most simple rooms.

The problem is the existence of an annoying choice.

The new tree is already a lot better when it comes to unlocking fundamental things VS exotic things, but it doesn't eliminate it completely.
Perhaps certain rooms should unlock automatically as you progress past a certain point, or, the player is at times forced to put points into basic stuff. This eliminates the choice.
Splitting off sections for "the roots" also works.

But maybe that's not even needed, the new veins look great and I think lots of gameplay testing will reveal if it needs to be changed or not.
 

Mozared

Juggernaut
WFTO Founder
Feb 17, 2013
1,132
836
525
30
#44
In regards to the Veins discussion; I've talked about them multiple times. Obviously some of that is by now outdated, but I can't find a link to a post where I talked about one specific aspect of the veins that @Psycix touched on in the post above me that always holds true.

The idea behind talent trees is that players get to choose talents they like to construct their own build, fitting to their own playstyle. Ideally you don't want any perk to be mandatory and every independent perk to be equally powerful. To achieve this, there is a sort of 'power scale' for perks. On the one hand, you have to make sure that the perk you plan on putting in the tree isn't so powerful that it's a mandatory pick. On the other, you have to make sure that the talents actually matter and that the player choice isn't so arbitrary that it, metaphorically speaking, only impacts the colour of his fire spell.

Now the thing is that talents aren't the sole factor in balance in WFTO and that because of this, there is some wiggle room. If you place, say, the Barracks and the Stone Bridge next to each other within the Veins, the player is going to grab the Barracks the majority of the time, hands down - except in levels where getting across lava fast is good, making the Stone Bridge hands down the better choice. This kind of wiggle room is fine, really. It is literally impossible to attain a perfect balance and having one where one thing is clearly better than another in specific in-game situations isn't a deal breaker.

I can probably mention here that one concept that passed by actually had a lot of powerful perks as 'passive points' that were awarded as soon as a player put X points into a certain tree. The issue with this system was mainly that it was unclear to the player in its execution, but the ideas of lining up talents against each other definitely carried over into later renditions of the system.

However, WFTO isn't quite there yet. The Veins have been discussed at length over and over with Simburgur, and I understand very well the decision to dump the Greed tree. Regardless, I've felt a bit 'meh' about the Vein designs that have passed by ever since, and looking at the concept within this news post I still tentatively feel that the original '3-Vein' system was the strongest one so far (mainly due to the fact that even though Greed was a mess, its strength precisely was that it had those perks that were simply all-round good for any player). That said: we're still not looking at the finalized version and we haven't even had any serious play-testing yet, so who knows where we'll be in a couple of weeks.
 

Ben Chandler

Impassibly Cool
WFTO Backer
Jan 23, 2013
311
87
310
#45
I can probably mention here that one concept that passed by actually had a lot of powerful perks as 'passive points' that were awarded as soon as a player put X points into a certain tree. The issue with this system was mainly that it was unclear to the player in its execution, but the ideas of lining up talents against each other definitely carried over into later renditions of the system.
.
how about something simple, like. you spend 5 sins or so in (currently named) wrath or sloth (and not the central neutral column) and you immediately gain an extra sin. this would encourage specialization, but not so massively that players will feel the need to rush this option.

my opinion still stands that the names should all be scrapped: wrath sloth and greed, with the suppliment of sins kind of worked earlier... but now in this new concept i think new names for all should be allocated
 
Nov 13, 2013
634
257
375
22
#47
I overall like the way the new vein design is, and I understand why greed was changed to neutral and made so that other veins unlock its tech options over time, but I do have one concern/problem with the current system.

The way the system is currently set up, a player who invests heavily into the neutral vein unlocks new vein options in the tree no faster then a player who invests heavily into sloth or wrath. This I think makes a neutral heavy play look unappealing and feel unrewarding. A player receives no tech benefit from unlocking stuff in the neutral vein. What I mean by that is that, for example when a player unlocks something in the wrath tree, he gets:
  • the benefit of the specific aspect he unlocked
  • another tier level in the wrath tree
  • 1/2 the way to a neutral tier
But when a player puts a point in the neutral vein, he gets:
  • the benefit of the specific tech he unlocked
  • 1/2 the way to a neutral tier
Now, this does not make a neutral heavy play unviable. What it does is that it limits a neutral player from being able to "rush" to the higher tiers of his vein like a wrath or sloth player can. I would especially like to point out that with the current set up, it takes twice the number of sin points invested to unlock the Archon as it does the Behemoth or the Eternal. In addition, a wrath or sloth player would unlock the Archon at the same number of sins invested as a player who put all their points in to the neutral vein. It just seems to me that a player is getting more utility/ choices if they go for a wrath or sloth build while a player who wants to go with a neutral vein build is limited. The sloth/wrath players can reach their high-level tech twice as quickly as a neutral player reaches theirs.

Not even the archive really helps balance this, because a wrath or sloth player unlocks the archive at the same time as the neutral player. They could get the archive(and its upgrade*) the moment they are unlocked and they then have the same potential tech advancement speed as the neutral player.

The point I am trying to make is this: I beleive that a player who invests heavily in the neutral vein should have some way of advancing up the neutral vein faster then a player who chooses to invest heavily in the wrath or sloth vein. Please :( this really is a large concern for me. Is pure neutral play going to be viable? And what about the archon? it seems to be that he has been severely pushed back in the time it takes to get him without compensating him for this.

* I noticed that the room upgrades were not in the new tech tree. Are they still in the game? or were they scrapped too?
 

Enjou

Ember Demon
WFTO Backer
Jan 10, 2012
1,315
785
550
36
#48
Excuse me but the webpage is full with all this beautiful concept art and the game stuck with ugly art buttons , why not use the concept art for buttons?
Because you can't just magically throw concept art into a program and expect it to work. It takes time and effort to do that. The next update should hopefully contain the new UI, just be patient.
 
Likes: desdicado

Mozared

Juggernaut
WFTO Founder
Feb 17, 2013
1,132
836
525
30
#49
As it stands, your issue is actually the whole point of the revamp. The 'neutral' tree will have so much 'must-have' stuff that you do not want to progress through it quickly.

Imagine for example the following situation:
Tier 2: Wooden Bridge, Vault, Barracks, and Summon Worker
Tier 3: Archive, Sanctuary, Prophecy, Lightning
Tier 4: Alchemy Lab, Useful Potion, Stone Bridge

If, with a set-up like this, you'd progress through the neutral tree as fast as one progresses through the Wrath/Sloth trees (1 tier per point), what would your build look like?

You'd have a tough choice for your first point. The Wooden Bridge is situational, but the Vault, Barracks and Summon Worker are all really good in the majority of scenario's. Say you pick Vault. Now the choice for your second point is even more difficult, since you still really want the Barracks and Summon Worker, but at the same time you're also looking at the Archive and the Sanctuary, and since you want to progress through the tree you're more likely to grab something from Tier 3 and skip those Tier 2 must-haves. Say this time you grab the Archive. At this point your third choice is a complete hell, since you're forced to choose between the Barracks, Summon Worker, the Sanctuary and the Alchemy Lab, let alone all the situational stuff you've skipped. There's a huge amount of choice stress.

The only thing preventing this situation from occurring is the fact that the player progresses through the 'neutral' tree slower. Heck, I personally fear there may actually be too much choice stress in the system as it is, let alone if players were to progress through the 'neutral' tree even faster than as presented in the current concept.
 
Last edited:

Simburgur

Managing Director
Brightrock Games
Nov 10, 2011
2,864
1,979
670
28
Brighton, UK
www.twitter.com
#50
* I noticed that the room upgrades were not in the new tech tree. Are they still in the game? or were they scrapped too?
Just answering this part as Moz tackled the rest.

Yes they are, but we are rethinking them a bit. For example, the Archive upgrade is going to provide two work points per prop (as opposed to one) instead of simply increasing the efficiency of the room by a flat amount. This goes hand in hand you getting more and more research units as you progress (necro, witch doctor).
 

Terrarkul

Cultist
WFTO Backer
Feb 3, 2013
1
0
185
#51
I had the idea of naming the sins after places rather than, well, sins. For instance, Sloth would become the greek Tartaros, the prison underworld (even deeper than Hades' realm of Hades) where the titans, among others, are kept prisoner. With Wrath, I am having more trouble with finding a suitable term that isn't just Hell or a painfully obvious derivation of.

(Also hey my first post here!)
 

Miyavi

Crackpot
Jan 4, 2013
264
147
350
32
Lancashire, UK
#53
If you do rename the whole system you could use the names of the 7 sins for 7 individual rituals or spells. just sayin.

Greed....summon gold.
Wrath....enrage units.
Sloth....freezing spell.
Lust....a charm spell.
.......you get the idea.
 

Psycix

Necromancer
WFTO Founder
Jan 9, 2013
834
305
410
#56
Very well said @Mozared.
The players need to be restricted in their choices in order to protect them from having so many that it feels agonizing.
After a quick thought, I realised that having the neutral tree unlock as you put points in veins makes this problem worse.
 

Reyh!

Crackpot
WFTO Backer
Dec 9, 2012
313
113
345
Norway
#58
If you look at my mock up it will not take much more room then the current one does, Three columns, three sins in the two side ones and a middle ground "Pride" tree
It won't be messy since there will be 3 column of Veins with each column having 2 sins with last sin reserved for Pride ( Super Units ). In other words, it will look the same, but all sins will be used properly.
Obviously i have missed something, what is this 7 sins idea? I figured it was 7 Veins, but i guess i was wrong.

Too me it's really important that the whole UI is structured and easy to use. As for the Vein tab i don't want it to be too advanced, as i feel that this 7 sins system would be. Perhaps the system won't take too much space on the screen, but i am concerned that it might do that if done wrong.
 

R0d

Cultist
Jan 19, 2014
17
8
185
34
#59
As it stands, your issue is actually the whole point of the revamp. The 'neutral' tree will have so much 'must-have' stuff that you do not want to progress through it quickly.

Imagine for example the following situation:
Tier 2: Wooden Bridge, Vault, Barracks, and Summon Worker
Tier 3: Archive, Sanctuary, Prophecy, Lightning
Tier 4: Alchemy Lab, Useful Potion, Stone Bridge

If, with a set-up like this, you'd progress through the neutral tree as fast as one progresses through the Wrath/Sloth trees (1 tier per point), what would your build look like?

You'd have a tough choice for your first point. The Wooden Bridge is situational, but the Vault, Barracks and Summon Worker are all really good in the majority of scenario's. Say you pick Vault. Now the choice for your second point is even more difficult, since you still really want the Barracks and Summon Worker, but at the same time you're also looking at the Archive and the Sanctuary, and since you want to progress through the tree you're more likely to grab something from Tier 3 and skip those Tier 2 must-haves. Say this time you grab the Archive. At this point your third choice is a complete hell, since you're forced to choose between the Barracks, Summon Worker, the Sanctuary and the Alchemy Lab, let alone all the situational stuff you've skipped. There's a huge amount of choice stress.

The only thing preventing this situation from occurring is the fact that the player progresses through the 'neutral' tree slower. Heck, I personally fear there may actually be too much choice stress in the system as it is, let alone if players were to progress through the 'neutral' tree even faster than as presented in the current concept.
It's great to see you guys are working on refining the veins system, and it's obviously hard to know exactly how well it's all going to work without having actually played the game with this in place.

I actually had the exact same concern as Antking when I read about the new design, and I'm still not convinced about the whole "too much choice" argument though.

It seems to me that the system has been designed so that it is a viable option for a player to specialise in either the wrath or greed tree, if that's the game style they want to play (either heavy of offense or defense). If they do this and quickly progress down on of those trees in the current system (maybe still grabbing one or two key things from neutral), they STILL open up all of the same veins as they would going down the neutral path, but have additional options within either wrath or greed as well.
Ie. they have even more choice than someone going straight down the neutral tree!

To me this kind of invalidates the counter argument that Mozared made to Antkings post, while still leaving the issue that "specialising" in the neutral tree pretty much gimps the player in terms of how quickly they can unlike the later (and presumably significantly stronger) techs. Combined with having an endgame super unit that comes twice as late, I think this is a real problem, and I think I would still prefer a system that allows someone focusing on neutral techs to unlock tiers in that path faster than someone focusing on wrath or greed.

I'm looking forward to getting my hands on the next update so I can hopefully play around with all of this and see if it's as much of a problem to me in practice as it seems to be in theory, who knows, maybe it won't seem like such an issue anymore.

Food for thought.
 
Jan 3, 2013
3,246
741
495
32
#60
Obviously i have missed something, what is this 7 sins idea? I figured it was 7 Veins, but i guess i was wrong.

Too me it's really important that the whole UI is structured and easy to use. As for the Vein tab i don't want it to be too advanced, as i feel that this 7 sins system would be. Perhaps the system won't take too much space on the screen, but i am concerned that it might do that if done wrong.
Basically the idea is to place Rooms in areas they are supposed to be, while maintain the 3-way progression tree. This idea is mostly visual, but it will also place rooms the way they do fit the most. Like Super Units, as the last unlockables, will be placed at very bottom, so I suggest give them different color and name that section as Pride ( for obvious reason ). Same could be done to other sins, this way all of them will be included, making the theme complete.
 
Top Bottom