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[0.5.0] Midas' Door more health

Marados

Matriarch
WFTO Founder
Dec 18, 2013
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435
Germany
#1
I would suggest that Midas' Door (costs 5000) has at least the same health than the normal door (costs 1000) even when you have no more gold stored.

Greetings, Marados
 

Beneathar

Necromancer
Apr 28, 2014
606
235
400
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Germany
#2
I Think the main health of the Midas Door is your Gold. I wonder that it has Health left when the Gold is completely empty (but i think this is needed)

What i think aboput the Midas Gate is, that it drains Gold much to fast, wich makes it rather useless. You loose all of your Gold only for holding the enemy Back for a few seconds? This is not a good choice. I only build that gate directly at my dungeon core as a last defence, everything else is too expensive.

To be honest, i dont like the Midas Gate at all.
 
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Marados

Matriarch
WFTO Founder
Dec 18, 2013
601
316
435
Germany
#3
What i think aboput the Midas Gate is, that it drains Gold much to fast
Yes. This have to be balanced as well.

But I mean, that when you have no more gold an enemy only needs one hit to destroy your expensive Midas Door.

I really do not know but let me guess the normal door has 100health (for example). Midas Door's health is depending from your gold amout. So the health of Midas Door is more than 100. But when you have no more gold. The health of it is only 1.

My suggestion now is, that (because it is way more expensive) Midas Door's health should be 100(the health from the normal door) + extra health for your gold.

Greetings, Marados
 

Beneathar

Necromancer
Apr 28, 2014
606
235
400
37
Germany
#4
As long as the Gate will depend on damage with a Multiplier it will drain gold too fast.

I dont think the Midas gate should have much HP more than your Gold amount lets it live. If you have no Gold a Midas gate is useless, and it should be useless then, anyways, I think it wont break the balance if it has some HP left when the Gold has been drained.

But it wont make sense, because its a defense based on your gold.

What i would suggest is, that an opened Midas Gate can be passed by enemies to stop gold drain. so it is only defensive when closed. Own minions should be able to pass the gate even when it is closed (and not under attack) I think that would make a real benefit.
 
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Triscopic

Crackpot
WFTO Backer
Dec 11, 2012
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United Kingdom (Great Britain)
#5
This seems like a good idea. Otherwise a single Gnarling sent at the Midas door could chop away your gold just because you're too busy rallying troops over to his location. Perhaps Midas doors should have three states: Closed, Open (for my minions), Open for all.
 

Noontide

Designer / Community Manager
Brightrock Games
Dec 8, 2012
2,154
1,779
665
Brighton, UK
#6
What i would suggest is, that an opened Midas Gate can be passed by enemies to stop gold drain. so it is only defensive when closed.
Hi Guys,

I'd just like to clarify that this is the design intent behind all doors, all units are physically able to path through open doors while no units are allowed through closed doors. The idea is that doors should involve an active component to managing the flow of units around your dungeon, permiting you to use them in more inventive ways.

At this moment in time the combat AI used for units, along with a lot of the Unit AI in general, is unfinished and as such it treats open doors as it does any defence, a target that needs to be destroyed. In the future units will ignore doors that are not blocking their pathing.

The Midas door is intended to have less base health than the wooden door, there will be other doors to fill the role of a generally tougher door. ;)

Cheers,

Lee
 
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Triscopic

Crackpot
WFTO Backer
Dec 11, 2012
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United Kingdom (Great Britain)
#7
doors should involve an active component to managing the flow of units around your dungeon
Hmm. I've been wrong before but my initial impression is that I for one won't like this mechanic as much as the current behaviour (which works as I expected it to - open doors still blocked enemy minions, closed ones allowed me to limit my own unit flow). Before anyone says it, I know "WftO is not DK3" but this was how doors worked in DK2 and was something so "right" I always took it for granted.

there will be other doors to fill the role of a generally tougher door
This sounds like excellent news. I've been wanting some sort of tough + expensive door for use in certain strategic locations for a while but didn't think it was coming.

More on topic, I was wondering if if the Midas door returned a % of damage back to the attacker as long as it was backed by gold would that be unbalanced or would that be an improvement? I'd prefer to burn through my gold if it meant that, say, 5% of damage was done to the attacker - although my vault will be empty when they get through at least the enemy will be greatly weakened.
 
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Jun 6, 2014
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#8
We really need three states for doors.

The default state should be closed. Closed doors block enemy units, but friendly units can open them and pass through at will. Locked doors would prevent all creatures from passing, and open doors allow all units to pass through.

As far as door types, What I would like to see is:
Standard doors. Lowish HP, mainly used for controlling the movement of creatures within your own dungeon rather than a main defense.
Upgraded doors (equivalent to steel doors in DK2, braced doors I feel were somewhat redundant when these came around), higher HP, so they are used at the periphery of your dungeon and critical areas to slow down attackers.
Hidden doors. Allows you to make sneaky hidden paths through certain areas, low HP, security lies in the enemy not knowing about them, and until discovered enemies can't attack them, but enemy workers will attempt to dig through them if a dig command is given (which would expose the door after some time)

Possibly doors that can attack back.

I'm honestly not sure what to think of Midas doors. It's great to have a high HP door, but the only door I really want to drain my resources is the one protecting my dungeon core.
 
Likes: Marados

Noontide

Designer / Community Manager
Brightrock Games
Dec 8, 2012
2,154
1,779
665
Brighton, UK
#9
Hmm. I've been wrong before but my initial impression is that I for one won't like this mechanic as much as the current behaviour (which works as I expected it to - open doors still blocked enemy minions, closed ones allowed me to limit my own unit flow). Before anyone says it, I know "WftO is not DK3" but this was how doors worked in DK2 and was something so "right" I always took it for granted.
It's a step away from how it's been handled in previous DMGs, but I think it holds some interesting strategic implications and opens the way for some interesting play with doors, something that passively active doors do not allow.

Firstly the fact that you cannot rely on a door to automatically determine the intent of an approaching unit, means that the player needs to be more aware of what is going on around his dungeon, You need to keep your eyes open if you plan to use a door for any defensive or indeed offensive measure. This encourages less passive play and more depth and process of decision on the player's part.

Secondly, you can perform a handful of tricks with doors that you couldn't previously, an quick example would be to use them to seperate an attacking force, closing the door on them as half the enemy gets through, cutting the tanks off from the healers and putting them in a position where you can cut them down. Making doors active opens up more creative usage like this, allowing doors to have a much more potent role in both defensive and offensive plays.

I think a problem is that so far most players are still thinking of doors as just delaying objects, we want them to be much much more interesting than that and active control of how units, both friendly and enemy, move in the dungeon meets that criteria.

This sounds like excellent news. I've been wanting some sort of tough + expensive door for use in certain strategic locations for a while but didn't think it was coming.
There's definitely some more doors coming, we intend all the doors to have more interesting mechanics than you found in other DMGs, ones that work in certain ways with other mechanics found in WFTO that will perhaps help Sloth players. ;)

More on topic, I was wondering if if the Midas door returned a % of damage back to the attacker as long as it was backed by gold would that be unbalanced or would that be an improvement? I'd prefer to burn through my gold if it meant that, say, 5% of damage was done to the attacker - although my vault will be empty when they get through at least the enemy will be greatly weakened.
The Midas door is an incredibly potent door if you have managed to establish a reserve of gold. If the door is well balanced it could be used extremely effectively to delay a force in a myriad of ways. Think of combining it with my example above, how long is it going to take your enemy to get through that doors while you butcher his units on the other side?

I'm not sure it needs any additional supplement to it's already potent but specialised role.
 

Nutter

Inquisitor
WFTO Founder
Jan 19, 2013
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#10
To follow on from Lee's post.. imagine having 2 Midas doors on each side of a room full of ballista or other traps... You let the offensive unit's go through, wait until the support group is within the door, lock the doors and let the ballistas do their work on the support/healers and let your creatures deal with the offensive units without healing support.
 

Marados

Matriarch
WFTO Founder
Dec 18, 2013
601
316
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Germany
#11
To follow on from Lee's post.. imagine having 2 Midas doors on each side of a room full of ballista or other traps... You let the offensive unit's go through, wait until the support group is within the door, lock the doors and let the ballistas do their work on the support/healers and let your creatures deal with the offensive units without healing support.
Where is the problem? This would be a very expensive and complex tactic.
(But the enemy can still recall his troops.)

Greetings, Marados
 

Nutter

Inquisitor
WFTO Founder
Jan 19, 2013
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#12
Where is the problem? This would be a very expensive and complex tactic.
(But the enemy can still recall his troops.)

Greetings, Marados
Recall is interrupted by damage, so as long as the Ballistas were damaging them they couldn't be recalled. And yes it would be an expensive tactic but it would work just as well with other doors (which I can't talk about since they're unrevealed :p)
 
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Miyavi

Crackpot
Jan 4, 2013
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Lancashire, UK
#13
Its a story classic, the good guys are marching down a corridor when oh noes !a door cuts the group in half !

panic ensues


know what would be cool ? being able to make whole walls out of camouflaged doors so you can raise/lower an entire section of wall with traps behind.
 
Jan 3, 2013
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#14
I sense a flaw in Midas Door concept witch needs to be addressed.

First of all this Door is useless if you can't defend yourself. It will drain your gold bringing your end closer. If you have an army, this door probably will be beyond the reach since your enemy will have to deal with your creatures or traps first.

This means the object that can delay the push of your enemy ( assuming your enemy can't destroy nearby walls instead or dig from other side ) will punish you more by leaving you without gold first and then letting enemy in. On some maps such gold loss will allow your enemy out-hunger you because you won't be able to build new rooms and traps efficiently, while Enemy will regroup and attack from somewhere else.

This Door needs it's concept reworked - right now it fails to deliver it's purpose properly.
 

Nutter

Inquisitor
WFTO Founder
Jan 19, 2013
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#15
I sense a flaw in Midas Door concept witch needs to be addressed.

First of all this Door is useless if you can't defend yourself. It will drain your gold bringing your end closer. If you have an army, this door probably will be beyond the reach since your enemy will have to deal with your creatures or traps first.

This means the object that can delay the push of your enemy ( assuming your enemy can't destroy nearby walls instead or dig from other side ) will punish you more by leaving you without gold first and then letting enemy in. On some maps such gold loss will allow your enemy out-hunger you because you won't be able to build new rooms and traps efficiently, while Enemy will regroup and attack from somewhere else.

This Door needs it's concept reworked - right now it fails to deliver it's purpose properly.
Or... You know.. that's exactly it's purpose and you just listed some of the ways to counter what is (potentially) invulnerable door (if you had infinite gold), if the map is so heavily dependent on gold that the enemy "knocking off" some of your gold will cause you to lose the game.. don't use a Midas door, use a different type of door which is better fit for the purpose. Nobody is forcing you to use one.

On the other hand, if you had a map where you're in control of 2 gold generation shrines and can generate gold quicker than the enemy can deplete it by attacking the door or you simply have a surplus (loads) amount of spare gold, then the Midas door would be a better choice.
 

Noontide

Designer / Community Manager
Brightrock Games
Dec 8, 2012
2,154
1,779
665
Brighton, UK
#16
The Midas Door's purpose is to provide the ultimate possible defense but at a cost. It does have a few vulnerabilities, specifically setting up and detonating a Underminer is almost certain to take it down; not something I would say is particularly a downside as another door can potentially fill this spot.

Simply put, the enemy cannot breach this door conventionally while you still have gold in your coffers. It's unique ability lends itself readily to a couple of functions:

  1. Supreme delay for as long as your gold holds out or as long as your enemy doesn't use an unconventional method of destroying it. The door is great if you have a large gold supply and need some extra time, if your reserves are being depleted too fast you can always open the door or sell it. It will still have served it's fucntion.
  2. Unconvential ambush tactics - Because it is essentially invulnerable while you still have gold it lends itself really well to controlling your enemy. As I pointed out above, sticking one of these doors in a specific place and allowing some of your enemy's units in while blocking out others is an especially powerful tactic that this door will do extremely well. The chances are they can't knock down the door before you wipe out at least half of his attack force.
I find that a lot of people are currently thinking about doors in the wrong way, namely how they traditionally were used in previous DMGs. Our doors are intended to be more than delaying tactics, we want to flesh them out and make them more interesting. To this end our doors are more actively engaging, each has it's own unique value. When you can't see the concept behind a door working, try to imagine a little beyond the common conventions and think where it's ability might be most useful.
 
Jan 3, 2013
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#17
As I said before, Door is simply countered numerous ways to the point it is either ignored or abused to drain your gold. I understand that it's meant to keep enemy away at the cost of gold, but right now this thing isn't working as intended properly.
 

AvatarIII

Ember Demon
WFTO Founder
Apr 20, 2012
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#18
perhaps a better way would be for it to be "charged" by dropping gold onto it? or maybe it only drains gold from adjacent vault tiles? this way you could vary how much gold each door can have access too, rather than all doors draining all your gold.

also it might be worth making the initial door much cheaper than 5k, because charging so much, you are paying for the privilege to lose even more gold. say it cost only 1000, 500, or even just 100 gold, it may seem cheaper than the wooden door, but once it is actually used, it will end up costing more per hit point.
 

Nutter

Inquisitor
WFTO Founder
Jan 19, 2013
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#19
Charging it with gold could work pretty well (but it would be a big change in the actual mechanic and would make recharging each one separately a bit of a pain if you're in the middle of a battle). Either that or a proportion of the build cost is used as a "base" health, i.e you spend 5K on the door and it has 4k of the gold converted to a 4K health bar that is used up after gold supplies have run out (with the other 1K being spent on actually building it).

Either way I think the build cost needs to be radically reduced.. 5K is a huge investment for something that can be easily destroyed (if the player has used up all of their gold as an example) by a single creature hammering at it at the right moment (when gold supplies are low)

I mean if you dropped it to 2.5K and made the converted to health bit be 1K then I think it would work pretty well.
 
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Reyh!

Crackpot
WFTO Backer
Dec 9, 2012
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Norway
#20
How about a door where you can manage the hp yourself by deciding how much gold you use on the door, with a slider? I.e, you want to use 20k gold on the door, and thereafter get a hp % that responds to that amount.
 
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