• This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn more.

Augrum wall and fortified wall

Do you agree?

  • Yes

    Votes: 4 40.0%
  • No

    Votes: 3 30.0%
  • Partly

    Votes: 3 30.0%

  • Total voters
    10
Jul 11, 2015
38
2
170
32
#1
Augrum wall cannot be destroyed or damaged with hellfire potion or underminer. 3 Imps need around ½ hour to bring the wall down but that is only if the enemy imps are not recovering it. Even spells, potions and sins such as obey, rage, haste and besiege on imps cannot help you much - still takes a long time. If enemy team has a well of souls behind the wall then its pretty much game over.

Standard fortified walls by enemy are also quite hard to bring down. An enemy player can pretty much enclose his dungen core with replacement earth and then fortify the walls. The walls are stronger than a glacial door and cannot be brought down my standard minions (and in this case requires imps in the offensiv). Hellfire potion or underminer cannot be put on claimed enemy tiles, so to get to enemy dungeon core you are required to capture the enemy base until you reach the walls enclosing his dungeon core.

This needs a fix.
 

Nutter

Inquisitor
WFTO Founder
Jan 19, 2013
2,453
1,092
590
29
Huddersfield, UK
nutter666.tumblr.com
#2
Augrum wall cannot be destroyed or damaged with hellfire potion or underminer. 3 Imps need around ½ hour to bring the wall down but that is only if the enemy imps are not recovering it. Even spells, potions and sins such as obey, rage, haste and besiege on imps cannot help you much - still takes a long time. If enemy team has a well of souls behind the wall then its pretty much game over.

Standard fortified walls by enemy are also quite hard to bring down. An enemy player can pretty much enclose his dungen core with replacement earth and then fortify the walls. The walls are stronger than a glacial door and cannot be brought down my standard minions (and in this case requires imps in the offensiv). Hellfire potion or underminer cannot be put on claimed enemy tiles, so to get to enemy dungeon core you are required to capture the enemy base until you reach the walls enclosing his dungeon core.

This needs a fix.
Fixed internally, the Augrum wall will take damage from underminers/hellfire as expected (the only reason we haven't pushed a patch yet is because the whole damage to walls system is pretty new and getting an overhaul ready for patch 1.2)

As for Walling your Core, I totally and wholeheartedly agree. The devs agree too, we're just not sure what the best solution to prevent people doing it actually is. We're certainly open to suggestions if you have any ideas :)
 
Jul 11, 2015
38
2
170
32
#3
As for Walling your Core, I totally and wholeheartedly agree. The devs agree too, we're just not sure what the best solution to prevent people doing it actually is. We're certainly open to suggestions if you have any ideas :)

My Suggestion 1: Allow Hellfire potion to be cast on enemy claimed tiles. 2-3 potions should be used to destroy a fortified wall. Perhaps make the hellfire potion more expensive.

My Suggestion 2: If dungeon core is enclosed without a gate/door then the mood of all minions starts to decrease because they cannot visit their beloved master's dungeon core.
 
Likes: ArchColossus
Jun 28, 2015
55
10
175
27
#4
As for Walling your Core, I totally and wholeheartedly agree. The devs agree too, we're just not sure what the best solution to prevent people doing it actually is. We're certainly open to suggestions if you have any ideas :)
Giving spirit workers the ability to mine enemy walls.

Also, in DK1, your minions need to visit the core before any other action can be performed.
 

Nutter

Inquisitor
WFTO Founder
Jan 19, 2013
2,453
1,092
590
29
Huddersfield, UK
nutter666.tumblr.com
#5
Giving spirit workers the ability to mine enemy walls.
I thought they could? either way, they're still a potion, you gotta get close enough to drop it and if you're that close you could just drop a hellfire potion.

Also, in DK1, your minions need to visit the core before any other action can be performed.
This would be my ideal solution, but it doesn't work in practice, since the player could always just wall up his core at a later point when he already has an army. There is no simple/quick fix to this (otherwise we'd probably have done it already)

My Suggestion 1: Allow Hellfire potion to be cast on enemy claimed tiles. 2-3 potions should be used to destroy a fortified wall. Perhaps make the hellfire potion more expensive.
Potions have always been an "own territory" mechanic, and if we allowed one to be dropped in enemy territory, we'd have to allow all of them.... and imagine how OP it would be being allowed to drop some of the other potions (looking at you quick freeze!) on your enemies territory.

My Suggestion 2: If dungeon core is enclosed without a gate/door then the mood of all minions starts to decrease because they cannot visit their beloved master's dungeon core.
This would work in theory, but it's an extra pathfinding check for every single minion (multiple times/frequently) which would hit performance massively for what is really quite a small thing in comparison, it's not behaviour we like or encourage obviously, but as I said, we need a solution which solves more issues than it creates.
 
Last edited:
Jun 3, 2015
27
2
165
28
#6
In my opinion the best solution would be to make the underminer (and maybe also all the other constructs) placeable on enemy territory.

The constructs aren't as strong as the potions, so it would impact the gameplay less if you could place them on enemy territory.
The underminer also has a pretty long construction and fire time, so your enemy has plenty of time to destroy it if you haven't defeated him yet. But if you have some fighting minions nearby it would be no problem to destroy the enemy walls with the underminer. In my opinion this would lead to a pretty good balance.

The only other construct that would be very strong is the outpost. But in my opinion it would be nice to have the possibility to claim an defeated enemy core in a reasonable amount of time. Right now the whole claiming up to the enemy's core takes way too long. And if you play with other players they almost have the same chances (if not better because they didn't have to fight) to claim a dungeon core, after it has been defeated by you. And it would also be possible to weaken the effect of the outpost on enemy territory to get a better balance (claim only one tile or instead of claiming turning enemy tiles back to dirt (but please make it usable on room tiles)).

All the other constructs aren't strong enough too really make a difference when placed on enemy territory.
 

Psycix

Necromancer
WFTO Founder
Jan 9, 2013
834
305
410
#7
This would work in theory, but it's an extra pathfinding check for every single minion (multiple times/frequently) which would hit performance massively for what is really quite a small thing in comparison, it's not behaviour we like or encourage obviously, but as I said, we need a solution which solves more issues than it creates.
There are ways to do this without harming performance. Programatically there are many tricks to solve issues like this.
Instead of directly calculating everything from scratch, you could make a map of what is reachable from each core, a map that only needs to be updated every time accessibility changes (which is often, but not like 60 times per second), creature's connectedness to the core can then be checked by looking at their position on that map / tile flag as often as you like without having to calculate a path.
Smart algorithms can update only the part of the map that is actually affected. It's all computationally light when done right.
 
Jun 28, 2015
55
10
175
27
#8
I thought they could? either way, they're still a potion, you gotta get close enough to drop it and if you're that close you could just drop a hellfire potion.
They can't do anything related to enemy territory. This might be intended but I feel that giving them the ability to mine enemy walls and not claim enemy tiles would be more balanced. (with a little increase in potion cost)

This would be my ideal solution, but it doesn't work in practice, since the player could always just wall up his core at a later point when he already has an army. There is no simple/quick fix to this (otherwise we'd probably have done it already)
Why would it not work in practice? It's a good mechanic because if it's walled after an army has been made, and that army gets destroyed, there would be no good way of regaining minions without opening your core again.

If the spirit workers would have the ability to mine these walls it would balance itself out.

It's all computationally light when done right.
I don't want to be an ass, but too bad the userbase does not experience this. (right now)
 

Lord of Riva

The Lord
WFTO Founder
Dec 29, 2012
2,786
923
540
31
#9
the core contract thing has other issues as well, whats with far away gateways etc.? you may want to build a different dungeon/oupost etc. that does not work if you minions go back to your core as they will searhc for the nearest place to stay (which makes sense normally, and the AI cant discern what you actually want) its sadly not as easy.


i surely cannot comment on the pathfinding being easy on performance as psycix sais.
 
Jun 28, 2015
55
10
175
27
#10
the core contract thing has other issues as well, whats with far away gateways etc.? you may want to build a different dungeon/oupost etc. that does not work if you minions go back to your core as they will searhc for the nearest place to stay (which makes sense normally, and the AI cant discern what you actually want) its sadly not as easy.


i surely cannot comment on the pathfinding being easy on performance as psycix sais.
Ofcourse it would be a long walk back to the core, but that's why you should be micromanaging as much as possible. This way the game stays balanced for more skilled players as it'll start depending on how well you know the metagame. (Explenation)

You could even add in something like a "Contract booth" that costs 15k and can't be build 10-20 spots from either a portal or a core. You could even make it so claimed enemy cores also would be able to offer the contract.
 
Jul 11, 2015
38
2
170
32
#11
Well lets get back to the root problem of Walling your Core: Which is the wall (fortified or augrum) is too hard to bring down. So here is a list of other things that could solve that:

  1. Reduce passive regeneration of walls (if it exsists)
  2. Remove imp's ability to heal walls
  3. Allow constructs on enemy tiles, so that they can be blown up with underminer
  4. Reduce the health of walls (fortified and augrum)
Walling your Core is a seperate problem, easy fix could be:
  1. Walling your Core damages your dungeon core
  2. Walling your Core removes your mana pool
  3. Remove replacement earth and augrum wall
 

Nutter

Inquisitor
WFTO Founder
Jan 19, 2013
2,453
1,092
590
29
Huddersfield, UK
nutter666.tumblr.com
#12
Well lets get back to the root problem of Walling your Core: Which is the wall (fortified or augrum) is too hard to bring down. So here is a list of other things that could solve that:

  1. Reduce passive regeneration of walls (if it exsists)
  2. Remove imp's ability to heal walls
  3. Allow constructs on enemy tiles, so that they can be blown up with underminer
  4. Reduce the health of walls (fortified and augrum)
Walling your Core is a seperate problem, easy fix could be:
  1. Walling your Core damages your dungeon core
  2. Walling your Core removes your mana pool
  3. Remove replacement earth and augrum wall
1. No passive regen, walls can only be repaired by workers (afaik).
2. Would create too many ripples.
3. This is (IMO) a possibility, but we'd need to do something to make them a lot more counterable (probably decreased health and increased channeling time) to compensate.
4. Walls are one of the only things Sloth has going for it, and we're only just getting to balancing the viability of walled dungeons vs open ones, nerfing their health would destroy this again.

As for the walling:

1/2. Hard to explain and communicate, and that's more of a punishment than a prevention.
3. As a mutator for MP, sure... but we can't remove them both from vanilla MP, that would cause so many problems.
 
Jun 3, 2015
27
2
165
28
#13
Walling your Core is a seperate problem, easy fix could be:
  1. Walling your Core damages your dungeon core
  2. Walling your Core removes your mana pool
  3. Remove replacement earth and augrum wall
I don't think we can or should do anything against walling your core. It is in fact very hard even to detect or describe what a walled core should be:
  • Does a wall that is 1 tile away from the core still count as a walled core?
  • Does a complete wall for your entire dungeon count as wall for the core?
  • What if i only build the argum wall and activate it just when someone attacks (or a replacement earth).
  • Do closed doors count as wall?

I think it would be enough to make the walls easier to destroy on enemy territory. And the idea with the constructs is still the easiest way to do that.
 
Apr 10, 2015
56
5
170
#14
Fixed internally, the Augrum wall will take damage from underminers/hellfire as expected (the only reason we haven't pushed a patch yet is because the whole damage to walls system is pretty new and getting an overhaul ready for patch 1.2)

As for Walling your Core, I totally and wholeheartedly agree. The devs agree too, we're just not sure what the best solution to prevent people doing it actually is. We're certainly open to suggestions if you have any ideas :)

Easy, core walled in, all rooms start losing health, eventually to neutral. Still walled in? Imps start dying, manna pool starts shrinking
Core starts to lose health
When core at 10% walls de fortify. Naturally should happe sooner than digging would take.

Much good
So fair
Such wow
 
Likes: Psycix
Apr 10, 2015
56
5
170
#15
I don't think we can or should do anything against walling your core. It is in fact very hard even to detect or describe what a walled core should be:
  • Does a wall that is 1 tile away from the core still count as a walled core?
  • Does a complete wall for your entire dungeon count as wall for the core?
  • What if i only build the argum wall and activate it just when someone attacks (or a replacement earth).
  • Do closed doors count as wall?

I think it would be enough to make the walls easier to destroy on enemy territory. And the idea with the constructs is still the easiest way to do that.

Walled core - minions cannot reach it, owner defences excluded ofcourse
 
Apr 10, 2015
56
5
170
#18
Yes, but definitely not early game. Pointless if workers can fortify, it should destroy completely.

Think temple sacrifices to unlock. So in the situation where enemy has gone full retard, drop 20 creatures into temple to sacrifice and get spell. Destroy wall. Prefer my first idea though, degeneration of entire dungeon, serves them right.


Would be funny to have full retard achievement as well, cherry on the top.

Or, i need to drink less, not sure.
 
Top Bottom