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[Campaign] Dynamic Overworld Map - Underlord devastation effects

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Enjou

Ember Demon
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#1
So, I was playing DK2 and I realized something when I came upon the level where you fight Nemesis...



This is where Nemesis's home dungeon is and he's got quite a bit going for him - he's got the portal gem for the area, there's only a minor hero presence, and as far as I can tell he and his sons have been entrenched there for quite some time. Given those bits of information why is it that his land is still a verdant, green abomination filled with joy and happiness? Why is it not a devastated wasteland or a horrible slum in which the oppressed populace hide in fear of their ruler's next edict? In all the other levels with rival Keepers it makes sense - the rivals are either still fighting heroic forces, have only secured victory recently, or they arrived at about the same time as you did and nobody has secured the gem yet. Not here though. It should be a hellhole fitting his tastes destined to become a hellhole fitting my own tastes.

So this got me thinking - IIRC a while back the the devs indicated they wanted to incorporate the overworld into the story indirectly. (was during the AMA Reddit, I think) In DK and DK2 every bit of land was green and pure until we came along and ravaged it, but surely any other successful Keeper/Underlord would do the same? Given that we'll come across lands where successful Underlords have been entrenched for a while, why not have this reflected in the map at the beginning of the story? While I'd expect most of the land to be green and under Empire control, some areas would already be dominated by the forced of darkness - after all, the War for the Overworld wouldn't have started with our own campaign, as it's something that would have been going on since long before the Empire itself most likely. Any area dominated by an Underlord could reflect their own particular theme. For instance, an ice based Underlord would have his lands be a cold, snowy wasteland. You could even incorporate that into player themes so that the player can pick their own brand of devastation.

Some levels might be partially devastated, others completely, depending on who is winning the conflict and how long its been going on. For instance, a land might be half controlled by an Underlord if the particular lord of the land has been fighting to a stalemate for years, or a land with multiple Underlords could have multiple devastation effects. Also, like in DK2 conflicts would be going on outside of the levels, and rather than just flashing blue where rival forces are active you can change the overworld map by eliminating Underlord devastation where the heroes take back the land or by adding or growing the Underlord devastation where the Underlords are victorious against heroes or eachother.

I think this would really make the world feel like it's alive and immerse us into being part of a changing world.
 

Peetfighter

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#2
So if you select a level where a enemy underlord is present for a while, the briefing would say something like: The joy and goodness is fading away in this area, I suspect there is a rivaling underlord somewhere, beware!
 

Enjou

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#3
So if you select a level where a enemy underlord is present for a while, the briefing would say something like: The joy and goodness is fading away in this area, I suspect there is a rivaling underlord somewhere, beware!
Honestly I'd expect my advisor to actually know who occupies the land in question, much like he did in DK2, seeing as that's part of his job. It would be more like "In spite of the Empire's best efforts, Underlord <name> has managed to hold this realm against for over a century. He is a cunning and dangerous foe, but I am certain that you more than are up to the task of defeating him." or "Underlord <name> recently wrested control of these lands from Imperial forces and has been ravaging the lands unopposed. The goodly Lord <name> and the last of his retainers are holed up in their last fortress so that they may train the few peasants that escaped into a suitable army so that they may a last ditch effort to turn the tables... I doubt either of these fools have any idea what is about to happen to them."
 

Peetfighter

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#4
Honestly I'd expect my advisor to actually know who occupies the land in question, much like he did in DK2, seeing as that's part of his job. It would be more like "In spite of the Empire's best efforts, Underlord <name> has managed to hold this realm against for over a century. He is a cunning and dangerous foe, but I am certain that you more than are up to the task of defeating him." or "Underlord <name> recently wrested control of these lands from Imperial forces and has been ravaging the lands unopposed. The goodly Lord <name> and the last of his retainers are holed up in their last fortress so that they may train the few peasants that escaped into a suitable army so that they may a last ditch effort to turn the tables... I doubt either of these fools have any idea what is about to happen to them."
Well in that case the mentor did his homework. :D
 
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Mozared

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#5
This is where Nemesis's home dungeon is and he's got quite a bit going for him - he's got the portal gem for the area, there's only a minor hero presence, and as far as I can tell he and his sons have been entrenched there for quite some time. Given those bits of information why is it that his land is still a verdant, green abomination filled with joy and happiness? Why is it not a devastated wasteland or a horrible slum in which the oppressed populace hide in fear of their ruler's next edict?
There's a simple answer to this question, but it evokes an even bigger question:

Because what we're seeing on the campaign map (your screenshot) is above ground, and setting up an underground dungeon doesn't really turn the land above it into a 'devastated wasteland'. If it did, then the whole quest for the portal gems in order to actually go to this whole 'overworld' area would be a bit pointless.

But yeah; this explanation obviously begs the question: then why do the looks of all the other completed levels change?
 

Enjou

Ember Demon
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#6
There's a simple answer to this question, but it evokes an even bigger question:

Because what we're seeing on the campaign map (your screenshot) is above ground, and setting up an underground dungeon doesn't really turn the land above it into a 'devastated wasteland'. If it did, then the whole quest for the portal gems in order to actually go to this whole 'overworld' area would be a bit pointless.

But yeah; this explanation obviously begs the question: then why do the looks of all the other completed levels change?
1. Nemesis has the portal gem for the level, and given his entrenched state likely has had it for a long time. Since the portal gems are the keys to going to the above ground in each individual realm, why would he not use it? Leaving the above ground untouched gives hero forces a staging area to attack him from.
2. The looks of the other levels change because once you win and get the portal gem for that location you and your forces go above ground and to terrible things to it. And seriously, is the player the only Keeper evil enough to do that?

For WFTO though it could be a possibility that the Dungeon Heart/Nexus/Core leaks out dark magic that is causes harm to the overworld if left sitting too long. (idea blatantly stolen from a DK fanfiction) In the AMA Reddit one of the devs stated that they wanted to incorporate the overworld in such a way that the heroes would have a good reason to come down and attack you, so that would work very well.
 

Mozared

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#7
1. Nemesis has the portal gem for the level, and given his entrenched state likely has had it for a long time. Since the portal gems are the keys to going to the above ground in each individual realm, why would he not use it? Leaving the above ground untouched gives hero forces a staging area to attack him from.
2. The looks of the other levels change because once you win and get the portal gem for that location you and your forces go above ground and to terrible things to it. And seriously, is the player the only Keeper evil enough to do that?
Either I am terrible mistaken or you are, but as far as I know the whole point of Dungeon Keeper 2 is that you need ALL portal gems in the realm to reach the overworld. One gem doesn't do jack shit. If it did, why would you need them all? Why didn't horny just go up above after level 1 and ended the game?
 

Enjou

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#9
Either I am terrible mistaken or you are, but as far as I know the whole point of Dungeon Keeper 2 is that you need ALL portal gems in the realm to reach the overworld. One gem doesn't do jack shit. If it did, why would you need them all? Why didn't horny just go up above after level 1 and ended the game?
I remember reading somewhere that there was some piece of official material outside of the actual game that explained that the portal gems where magical keys to getting to the overworld in individual realms, but also had to be kept underground. The opening and ending videos somewhat contradict this, but the overworld being devastated after the player gets the individual gems supports it. I think it was mentioned by one of the devs at some point, but I can't find it for the life of me.

I blame the inconsistencies on the fact that the larger storytelling in the DK games being rather poor. Nowhere in the game (or even the manual) is it actually explained why you need the portal gems to get to the overworld in the first place - if you can't get through a door, why not just dig upwards?
 

Underlord Vulukai

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#10
ah, this idea births even more ideas. What if you could choose an elemental affinity for your keeper and based on that it would effect the overworld differently when you completed a level.

What if there was a RISK like game mode where you and another person (or multiple persons) battled over an overarching series of regions (1v1 player 1 attacks, p2 defends, p2 attacks, p1 defends. games saved like chess matches or Star Wars battlefront games) and, with your affinity, color, and banners, these things would be plastered all over and spread across the areas you conquered.
 
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Tenebris

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#11
Do love grand strategy and "Living World" campaign ideas. Want.

It just feels right having that added dynamism. Particularly liked the idea of Underlords reshaping the land to suit their individual natures (As given with the ice theme)
 
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Even DKII had a story, in DKI it was simply absent... Except for the littleat the beginning of each level stories, but these were incoherent...
Technically none had a story in the first place.

You begin from a little land ( usually in the corner ) and then keep moving forward, destroying everything on your way.

If WFTO will have an ''animated world map'', then obviously each piece of the continent will represent a level and based on what objects are on that piece ( castles, small dungeon hearts or just ruins ) we will know if land is conquered ( generally destroyed, unless there will be a way to rate the damage you caused and display it accordingly on world map ). Still, it's purely a visual suggestion, and I'm sure devs already have some ideas for such thing.
 
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