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Concerns about WFTO

Don88

Dwarven Worker
Jan 18, 2015
5
0
20
#1
Talking to friends and other who own WFTO and we have some concerns about release of WFTO. It is coming up to release (just over one month away) and the game is far beyond polished and with many many broken promises.

Please note these are not just my views, they are other who I have spoken too in Steam and irl.

I have also talked to a number of people who claim to be from the "qa team" who have said they only focused on the campaign and its no where near finished and the things below are not fixed internally.

Broken promises:
  • Release date has been missed. (Yes I have read the news post last year)
  • Flex goals? What ever happened to these? This going be DLC now?
  • It was confirmed modding is not going be possible.
  • Map editor is no where to be seen so clearly not going be out before release.
  • DRM free! No where to be seen or even talked about.

Please note the game is nearly one month away from release

Why the game will not be ready for release.

Sound
Anyone noticed the lack of sound in the game?
  • No unit sounds, dropping, picking up, nothing!
  • No room sounds apart from the Foundry, the game feels so dull and empty.
  • Gold picking up and dropping.
  • Only a number of spells have sound effects.
  • Battle music? is there any?
  • Combat sound effects? Hardly non.
  • Ambiance? One or two tracks.
  • Voice over is incomplete
  • In game menu?
Visual / graphics
The games looks nice at first then you start noticing things.. rather quickly
  • Nothing but straight lines, walls and all tiles look unnatural.
  • Some rooms look great, other look really underwhelming. You can honestly tell which were the first designed.
  • Some rooms are not finished. Effects clearly missing.
  • Few rooms are bright as the sun while others are down right dark.
  • Many many units are missing effects and animations.
  • In game menu?

Combat and pathfinder.
  • Units are dumber than the original Dungeon keeper in the 90's!
  • Units flee all the time and range unit flat out run away.
  • Units face the wrong way casting spells.
  • Imps do there own thing.
UI
Where to even start.
  • VoE? Who thought this was a good idea? The thing is so complex and unclear I spend 5m reading every time I open the thing. Its not fun for new players at all. It has just been over designed and completely unnecessary clutter.
  • Flag menu on the right side. Can anyone honestly tell me they used that without scrolling the game window?
  • Flat out will not work on low resolutions
  • It can become laggy when lots of things are going on.
  • Mana locking! I had to google this.. its completely unclear.
  • In game menu?
Hotkeys
Non
Performance
  • Runs no where near the recommended specs.
  • Loading screens tell me the game has stopped responding
  • The game will drop down below 20fps in combat.
Multiplayer
  • More bugs than you can count
  • Lucky if you can play or find another player
  • UI.. I don't think I can even call that a UI.
  • Have to open ports? The 90's are calling guys!
  • Runs like crap.
Balance
  • Balance? non
While yes a number of people are going enjoy playing it. Soon as reviews get hold of this its going skin so fast.

Only a small hand full of the things above will be fixed in the next 40 days so get ready for multiply hot fixes on day #1.

Edit: I will note that Subterranean Games dev team is the nicest and friendliest I have ever talked to. I had to email alisteir last week regarding my shipping information and I got a reply within minutes, I thought it was an automated response at first +1 for that
 

mishko

Witch Doctor
Founder
Feb 27, 2012
866
238
440
25
Michigan
#2
The release date marks the release of the campaign. They will continue to work on and patch the game after the release date.
 

Don88

Dwarven Worker
Jan 18, 2015
5
0
20
#3
The release date marks the release of the campaign. They will continue to work on and patch the game after the release date.
Wait, what?

The game will no longer be in Beta, it will no longer be in early access - the game is going be released and marketed as a finished product! That is the whole point of release.

This is what is wrong with the game industry today. Devs releasing unfinished games and saying "We finished" because when your out of beta/early access that is what your saying to gamer.

The devs are brain dead or they are been forced to release way earlier than they should be for whatever reason.

  1. release the game
  2. support for awhile
  3. reband due to disappointment
  4. new game
 

Simburgur

Managing Director
Dev Team
Nov 10, 2011
2,864
1,979
705
26
Brighton, UK
www.twitter.com
#4
For most of your points I'm just going to say: Wait until release before judging. Most of the things you mention are being worked on right now.

Broken promises:
  • Release date has been missed. (Yes I have read the news post last year)
  • Flex goals? What ever happened to these? This going be DLC now?
  • It was confirmed modding is not going be possible.
  • Map editor is no where to be seen so clearly not going be out before release.
  • DRM free! No where to be seen or even talked about.
  • Release date & Modding: Yes you're right about this, but if you've read the post from last year then there's nothing else to say, and if you're still upset about it then I'm afraid your expectations just aren't realistic.
  • Flex Goals: Did we confirm they were scrapped or that they would be DLC? No. Please ask before assuming the worst.
  • Map editor: Did we confirm this would be in by release?
  • DRM Free: Clearly stated in the FAQ that this is coming.
UI
Where to even start.
  • VoE? Who thought this was a good idea? The thing is so complex and unclear I spend 5m reading every time I open the thing. Its not fun for new players at all. It has just been over designed and completely unnecessary clutter.
  • Flag menu on the right side. Can anyone honestly tell me they used that without scrolling the game window?
  • Flat out will not work on low resolutions
  • It can become laggy when lots of things are going on.
  • Mana locking! I had to google this.. its completely unclear.
  • In game menu?
  • VoE: You're jumping into Sandbox without playing through the campaign. Of course it's not going to make sense. Try playing SC2 multiplayer without ever playing a Starcraft game before.
  • Flag menu is being moved to the left and redesigned.
  • Performance is being worked on right now.
  • Mana locking, again, is explained in the campaign.
  • Main menu is coming.
And this popped up as I was responding...
Wait, what?

The game will no longer be in Beta, it will no longer be in early access - the game is going be released and marketed as a finished product! That is the whole point of release.

This is what is wrong with the game industry today. Devs releasing unfinished games and saying "We finished" because when your out of beta/early access that is what your saying to gamer.

The devs are brain dead or they are been forced to release way earlier than they should be for whatever reason.

  1. release the game
  2. support for awhile
  3. reband due to disappointment
  4. new game
Before I continue: Are you wanting to have a conversation or are you just here to make stuff up and spout vitriol? You even stated yourself that we are the 'nicest and friendliest team you have ever spoken to', then an hour later you call us braindead and assume we want to rip off customers and abandon our product?

I'm sorry, but this kind of post just rubs me up the wrong way. Just look around. We're here to talk, we're here to answer your questions, and we're to listen, but we do ask that you be respectful to everyone when posting here, or you will not be welcome.
 

Don88

Dwarven Worker
Jan 18, 2015
5
0
20
#5
I want a honest conversation.... what rubs me up the wrong way is when I gave you money and then read you take things away. Its honestly upsetting and not the idea I backed. I cannot see the finished game within 45days. It unrealistic.

No, I was stating the current indie game industrial works today, it has happened time and time again. "brain dead" It was an over the top remark which I thought was clear but sadly not.

Flex Goals: Did we confirm they were scrapped or that they would be DLC? No. Please ask before assuming the worst.
Some of the flex goals will take longer than a month to do surely. So yes im 100% sure some will be scrapped.

Map editor: Did we confirm this would be in by release?
Yes, in KS comments and moddb by your lead programmer. Cant find the comment on Moddb now due to your page been taken down?

Ok, maybe I jumped on UI a bit fast but its all clearly unfinished and things missing.
 

Simburgur

Managing Director
Dev Team
Nov 10, 2011
2,864
1,979
705
26
Brighton, UK
www.twitter.com
#6
I want a honest conversation.... what rubs me up the wrong way is when I gave you money and then read you take things away. Its honestly upsetting and not the idea I backed. I cannot see the finished game within 45days. It unrealistic.

No, I was stating the current indie game industrial works today, it has happened time and time again. "brain dead" It was an over the top remark which I thought was clear but sadly not.


Some of the flex goals will take longer than a month to do surely. So yes im 100% sure some will be scrapped.


Yes, in KS comments and moddb by your lead programmer. Cant find the comment on Moddb now due to your page been taken down?

Ok, maybe I jumped on UI a bit fast but its all clearly unfinished and things missing.
The build you are seeing is already several weeks out of date, a huge amount of progress has been made (and there was plenty of content that was excluded from that build to start with).

However, we really don't want unhappy players. If you do feel we're not making the game we promised to make, we'll try to arrange a refund (fyi: we can't issue refunds through steam, but we can through KS & Humble).

Flex Goals were always intended to be developed post release (as free content for backers, maybe other users as well depending on what actually wins).

Any comments on moddb prior to last year weren't made by us, they were made by the previous team (we did recently take it all down to avoid confusion - we weren't in control of the page until a week or two ago). At the beginning of 2013 we essentially started fresh with a new team and a new game once it became apparent that trying to use the DK IP wasn't going to work out.
 

Don88

Dwarven Worker
Jan 18, 2015
5
0
20
#7
The build you are seeing is already several weeks out of date, a huge amount of progress has been made (and there was plenty of content that was excluded from that build to start with).

However, we really don't want unhappy players. If you do feel we're not making the game we promised to make, we'll try to arrange a refund (fyi: we can't issue refunds through steam, but we can through KS & Humble).

Flex Goals were always intended to be developed post release (as free content for backers, maybe other users as well depending on what actually wins).

Any comments on moddb prior to last year weren't made by us, they were made by the previous team (we did recently take it all down to avoid confusion - we weren't in control of the page until a week or two ago). At the beginning of 2013 we essentially started fresh with a new team and a new game once it became apparent that trying to use the DK IP wasn't going to work out.
Its not that I am waning a refund its just I feel irate with how the indie game industry is and how it currently works.

Sorry it was not made on moddb but Nexus.

"users will vote.... implemented before release" was made by William - lead programmer in the KS comments.

If you could provide some insight on my other comments that would be great thank you.

Edit also you never commented on map editor?
 

Nutter

Frost Weaver
Founder
Jan 19, 2013
2,449
1,090
615
28
Huddersfield, UK
nutter666.tumblr.com
#8
William (assuming it's the same one) hasn't been a part of the development team for over a year (and a half?), i'm pretty sure he left due to clashing ideas about the direction of the game... needless to say, if it is him, any information you've got from him is neither correct, nor official as he's no longer part of the development team (and certainly doesn't have access to internal builds)

I'm also pretty sure that the official/real dev team don't have anything to do with the Nexus page anymore, and haven't done since Will left the team.

That was before I was part of the QA team so someone "official" might need to clarify that, but yeah.. sounds like you've been hearing incorrect information.
 

Simburgur

Managing Director
Dev Team
Nov 10, 2011
2,864
1,979
705
26
Brighton, UK
www.twitter.com
#9
Nutter is mostly correct. Will has not been part of the team for quite a while.

Regarding the map editor: For those willing to put up with using the debug console and probably many bugs, this will be available at launch (probably shortly before, but no promises). We aren't officially launching our map editor (with a pretty UI and Steam Workshop support) until after release though.

Regarding this point:
I want a honest conversation.... what rubs me up the wrong way is when I gave you money and then read you take things away.
This is just how game development works, especially outside AAA studios. As we continue to work on a game and learn what does and doesn't work, our plans will change - We'd be pretty arrogant and short sighted if we thought that every decision we made 2 years ago was perfect. Some features get added and other features get cut. Every decision we've made has been for the betterment of the overall game.

If you could point out anything specific you want an answer to I'd be happy to oblige.
 

darkrage

Dwarven Worker
Jan 18, 2015
24
5
20
26
#10
Nutter is mostly correct. Will has not been part of the team for quite a while.

Regarding the map editor: For those willing to put up with using the debug console and probably many bugs, this will be available at launch (probably shortly before, but no promises). We aren't officially launching our map editor (with a pretty UI and Steam Workshop support) until after release though.

Regarding this point:

This is just how game development works, especially outside AAA studios. As we continue to work on a game and learn what does and doesn't work, our plans will change - We'd be pretty arrogant and short sighted if we thought that every decision we made 2 years ago was perfect. Some features get added and other features get cut. Every decision we've made has been for the betterment of the overall game.

If you could point out anything specific you want an answer to I'd be happy to oblige.
Hey Simburgur, i was wondering if you are going to add any co-operative modes in the future?
 

darkrage

Dwarven Worker
Jan 18, 2015
24
5
20
26
#12
I hope that most cut features become available in the future if decided on. This, Grey Goo, Roller Coaster Tycoon 4, Parkitect and Age of Empires IV (hopefully announced next week) will be big 90's comeback
 

Don88

Dwarven Worker
Jan 18, 2015
5
0
20
#17
Nutter is mostly correct. Will has not been part of the team for quite a while.
Well ok, but he spoke on behalf of the company at that time giving wrong information.

Ok, so no map editor at launch, this is a great shame.

This is just how game development works, especially outside AAA studios. As we continue to work on a game and learn what does and doesn't work, our plans will change - We'd be pretty arrogant and short sighted if we thought that every decision we made 2 years ago was perfect. Some features get added and other features get cut. Every decision we've made has been for the betterment of the overall game.
ok I can understand that but it seems like a lot of your core ideas have been cut from the KS which now leave many people wondering what happened

could you address the missing sounds? music? lighting? options menu? Voiceover? effects? game menus? hot keys? path finding? Buggy combat? balance? Mutiplayer?

There just seems like many many many things are missing for coming up one month for release.
 

Meshuggly

Lead Audio Designer
Dev Team
Jun 6, 2012
127
152
330
33
North Nottinghamshire, UK
#20
There have been a ton of sound effects for rooms present for a long time, but looking at your profile I can see you only joined the forum on Sunday. The reason you haven't heard much (recently, for the older guys) is because we had a bug where prop sounds where not playing.

This was fixed a couple of hours ago on our end, so should be updated on steam at some point soon.

Music: There is just over an hours worth of ambient music, but the chances are the playlist hasn't been added to all the levels yet (needs to be manually done to each individually). Battle music is WIP.
 
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