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[Defense] Instantly Killing Traps - D&S

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#1
Instantly Killing Traps? - Discussion & Suggestions

I would ask You everyone, what do You think about traps that takes ones live on a one hit?
I remember builder traps from DK series - having only 1 You could kill many, very strong creatures, destroy almost everyone on the map (including Your minions..), You could have even no idea that enemies was on their way for Your head!
Instant kill traps, like I called them are so nice, but makes gameplay so short and easy to finish. Maybe some of restrictions like was a one in DK 1 - relative slow speed of BT - could be a good solution? I'm encouraging to a discussion and to read about some of my traps ideas.

Door Trap
The Trap and Door at the same time? Why not!
Highlight: Kills enemies that stays close enough to the Door Trap instantly
Vein: Sloth
How does it Work: Whenever the enemy stays under the Door Trap it falls down on the enemy. To slam the enemy Trap Door needs 2,5 seconds to falls down to the ground - after that time kills instantly, so there is some time to escape. After slam Door Trap crushes and than dissapear.
Appearance: It looks like a common wooden door. If You could turn this movie about 90° that would nicely mirrored my uggestion, enjoy, hyhuhehaha!
Pounder
Highlight: Kills enemies that stays under the Pounder instantly
Vein: Greed
How does it Work: Whenever the enemy stays under the Pounder it falls down on the enemy. To slam the enemy Pounder needs 2 seconds to falls down to the ground - after that time kills instantly, so there is some time to escape. After slam Pounder crushes and than dissapear. It's ceiling trap, so hard to see by player in non-possession mode.
Appearance:


On the same slamming system I could add Black Mistress as a wall trap, that slams the enemy from both side of the wall or comes from under the pavement, catches and than closes.

Trap that could be set on a bridge could collapse if the enemy steps on it and than throws to the lava.

I encourage to a discussion and saying some words about suggested traps. :)

EDIT:
After some feedbacks I came to this conclusion to make instant killing traps not overpowered:
- kills weaker/smaller creatures instantly, but they are more fearful, so there could be a chance for them to escape.
- harm or/and stun bigger/stronger creatures, but they are less fearful so there is a chance to slam them more probably then weaker/smaller
- these traps on really strength creatures could just crash doing nothing (like BT in DK 1 on Avatar)

So as victim is bigger/stronger, less fearful there is a bigger chance to kill/harm that creature, everything will be balanced until one of the creature like Skeleton that is thin and relatively weak will be totally fearless, than let the Hell has him in it's care. ;) Everything depends on power, size and fear factor.
 
Likes: Tommonius

Artaire

Bloodling
May 23, 2013
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#2
I think they could be added fairly, simply give them a long channel time and high cost and voila. If someone fails to move after discovering the trap, then they deserved to be punished. Only thing I'm going to be concerned about is if they are ceiling trap, The pounder in this instance. Mainly because they are pretty hard to see unless possessing as you have said and I think 2 seconds is a bit unforgiving for a trap you cannot see which is going to instakill. Bit longer cooldown maybe 2.5 for that aswell.

Dunno though really, DK1 was certainly unforgiving with some traps, so I might just be being mard after having a lot of butt hurt through lava traps and lightning traps lol. Just my opinion as always ^^
 

Tommonius

Necromancer
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#3
Okay I like this idea and I feel nostalgic for the good old boulder trap when I consider this, just a wall of ultra killing goodness that wrecks monsters which is great and all but the small non biased part of my mind cannot but help and think that sure kill traps are unbalanced, the timer which gives the enemy a chance to move is great but this game ain't going to allow hot pickups for your entire army and if I am right it will cost mana to save your minions in dangerous situations and that is a problem with balance.

Also some super elite creatures I would think should not be auto killed but perhaps have that for monsters of a certain strength/ build. The puny and medium built monsters are crushed without exception but the larger and stronger creatures just take heavy damage.

Still nice design and hope the devs look at this.
 

Nutter

Frost Weaver
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#4
I'm not against the idea of Insta-kill traps in theory, but there are certain things that are important if they are to have any place in the game

A: the AI needs to be smart enough to react and try and get out of the way, not just stand there and let itself be crushed.
B: There needs to be some kind of indicator/sign that a trap is there, a trigger plate sticking out of the floor under a ceiling trap is there is a good example.
C: They can't be so easy to build/use (without significant time/gold cost) that a sloth player can defend his dungeon without using any creatures just because he has Insta-kill traps all over the place.

Personally i'd like nothing better than to watch an unfortunate blood imp step on a pressure plate and send a crushing ceiling trap come crashing down, even if he narrowly escapes being crushed i'd like to see it the trap block the tunnel for a few seconds to trap him in your territory ripe for your creatures to kill him. From a gameplay point of view though, that's very overpowered and hard to balance (particularly in multiplayer games where all the underlords could be using them)
 
Jun 26, 2013
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#5
Nice ideas, like other suggestions I'm not sure you should be able to instantly kill your most powerful units, instead maybe 80 percent damage.

What about a simple trap door that any creature can fall in. The creature is stuck and can not attack until rescued?
 
#8
I think they could be added fairly, simply give them a long channel time and high cost and voila. If someone fails to move after discovering the trap, then they deserved to be punished. Only thing I'm going to be concerned about is if they are ceiling trap, The pounder in this instance. Mainly because they are pretty hard to see unless possessing as you have said and I think 2 seconds is a bit unforgiving for a trap you cannot see which is going to instakill. Bit longer cooldown maybe 2.5 for that aswell.
Yes, we could give them low channel time or higher cost. We have to remember these kind of traps has only one uses, than You have to make the next Instant KT in Your Foundry. Too long channel time could just not work, creature that it's movement speed is on moderate level could avoid this trap easily goes throw under the trap. High cost would be fair, maybe even far higher than we could experience in DK series.


(...) the timer which gives the enemy a chance to move is great but this game ain't going to allow hot pickups for your entire army and if I am right it will cost mana to save your minions in dangerous situations and that is a problem with balance.
Also some super elite creatures I would think should not be auto killed but perhaps have that for monsters of a certain strength/ build. The puny and medium built monsters are crushed without exception but the larger and stronger creatures just take heavy damage.
I think these traps would be useless if we could take away all units, in DK 1 just 8 You could picks up. This is hard to imagine if on a one tile 6 or more creatures could be at the same time, anyway idea with exception of instant kill of some strong creature is a good idea, in DK 1 Horny or Knight could resist one hit from builder trap, Avatar was immune to BT affect.


I'm not against the idea of Insta-kill traps in theory, but there are certain things that are important if they are to have any place in the game

A: the AI needs to be smart enough to react and try and get out of the way, not just stand there and let itself be crushed.
B: There needs to be some kind of indicator/sign that a trap is there, a trigger plate sticking out of the floor under a ceiling trap is there is a good example.
C: They can't be so easy to build/use (without significant time/gold cost) that a sloth player can defend his dungeon without using any creatures just because he has Insta-kill traps all over the place.

Personally i'd like nothing better than to watch an unfortunate blood imp step on a pressure plate and send a crushing ceiling trap come crashing down, even if he narrowly escapes being crushed i'd like to see it the trap block the tunnel for a few seconds to trap him in your territory ripe for your creatures to kill him. From a gameplay point of view though, that's very overpowered and hard to balance (particularly in multiplayer games where all the underlords could be using them)
A: That never happend in DK series, dunno it would be very hard to implement for one kind of traps from programming side.
B: That's good idea, not for computer player, but living player of course.
C: Yes, they could be unlocked on a half or higher level of the one of Veins.


Nice ideas, like other suggestions I'm not sure you should be able to instantly kill your most powerful units, instead maybe 80 percent damage.
What about a simple trap door that any creature can fall in. The creature is stuck and can not attack until rescued?
I thought about that making Carnivorous Maw ceilling trap, but that was hard to imagine for big creatures like Juggernaut that would be trapped/swallow by trap. We could make these traps working for smaller units and not working for bigger units, but that should be classified while programming the units variables.
 
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Fireeye

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#9
I strongly oppose traps that can kill everything with a single hit, even if they have upkeep and long CD. I wouldn't particularly mind traps powerful enough to kill low-to-mid-level creatures, but a trap that is capable of removing a level 10 creature from the game in an instant simply is overpowered imho.
 

Nutter

Frost Weaver
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#10
A: That never happend in DK series, dunno it would be very hard to implement for one kind of traps from programming side
I'm sure they would have done it if they could, they just didn't have that kind of option back then.

In regards to it being hard to implement, I don't see why... We have a fear status (i.e certain units will flee from something if they fear it), an activated trap could cause fear meaning that "intelligent" units would flee, whilst undead or fearless stuff wouldn't. (Anything that is intelligent and fearless is probably big enough to shake off the trap without dying anyway so...)
 

Lord of Riva

The Lord
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Dec 29, 2012
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#11
im too strongly against insta killing traps. in your suggestion only wrath doesnt getm such a trap which is a balancing horror, even more if you have a "intelligent units will run away, beasts will die" mechanic in it.
there should be traps that make some good damage yes, but in my opinion it should work like Orcs must die. Traps can and will kill some of the creatures but if dont use your creatures you will die. Traps should support your army and weaken the enemy not win the war alone.

adding
 
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Nutter

Frost Weaver
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#12
even more if you have a "intelligent units will run away, beasts will die" mechanic in it.

adding
Just to clarify since I was the one who orignally said "intelligent" creatures, I should have probably used a better word than intelligent since I was meaning to include beasts too.

Anything with a survival instinct/sense of preservation. I basically meant, if it's not undead or totally fearless, or large enough that the trap doesn't phase it, it'll try and dodge/escape it.

Also I see these kind of traps as only efficient with smaller/weaker creatures. Some kind of crushing ceiling trap would pose little threat to an augre, he'd just hold it open or break it, but a poor blood imp is going to be a bloody splat on the floor regardless of level unless he's quick enough to dodge it.
 

Lord of Riva

The Lord
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#13
yeah okay. still we have to see that we actually dont know a lot about the devices in WFTO so even if i say : "mimimi too strong mim imi " dont feel that it has anything to do with implementing it :p

its actually very good that so much traps are now coming (thanks sim) and even a trap as this may be implemented in a good way :D lets trust the devs in that regard ;)
 

Artaire

Bloodling
May 23, 2013
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#14
yeah okay. still we have to see that we actually dont know a lot about the devices in WFTO so even if i say : "mimimi too strong mim imi " dont feel that it has anything to do with implementing it :p

its actually very good that so much traps are now coming (thanks sim) and even a trap as this may be implemented in a good way :D lets trust the devs in that regard ;)

Well tbh theres nothing really to worry about, even after something is implemented it can get rebalanced in a heartbeat providing the mechanics are great. They can roll with one idea for a while and if people deem it to be OP then i'm sure it'll be changed, either via cooldown, cost or some other means.
 
Jan 3, 2013
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#15
Traps that insta-kill are mostly intended to be used against scouts. Any other kind of the creature probably won't fall into that under normal conditions.

If it won't kill lvl10 creature, then trap will be useless against a group of high level enemies as it will take only one to trigger it, leaving the rest unharmed and most likely the trap destroyed later.

The best would be to keep a trap that kills it's victim and then gets destroyed. In this case it will only be the question of the price and manufacturing process time, aka old classic Boulder Trap style.
One thing that concerns me is the fact that it is pretty much invisible to player, so he can't be sure it's safe for his scout to do it's job, however on the other side, this traps needs to be invisible for the reason.

To sum-up, let it be as DK1's boulder trap, reduce the fall delay from 2.5 to 1.5 since there will be a chance creature will simply cross it without stopping ( especially if it will be a scouting unit or possessed imp ( this one will need to be dealt with somehow )) and decide the price/manufacture rate.
 

Tommonius

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#16
well I decided to ask about this topic on livestream and the devs felt instant kill traps are boring so I guess this is a no go, the response was lhaving 5 instant kill traps in a narrow corridor and you loose like 5 minions without even realising it
 
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#18
That will not stop me to bring new suggestions. I made this topic open more for people's thinks than my suggestions. I'm with no making instantly killing traps, because many factors has to be applied to know if one will die or will just be harmed. Anyway, I would like to see something like Pounder or Door Trap that slams creatures making them stunned or harmed, so after slam, trap would be destroyed after hit on the ground. Thanks for Your ideas people and Tommonius for ask Devs about this topic. :)
 

Tommonius

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#19
That will not stop me to bring new suggestions. I made this topic open more for people's thinks than my suggestions. I'm with no making instantly killing traps, because many factors has to be applied to know if one will die or will just be harmed. Anyway, I would like to see something like Pounder or Door Trap that slams creatures making them stunned or harmed, so after slam, trap would be destroyed after hit on the ground. Thanks for Your ideas people and Tommonius for ask Devs about this topic. :)
no worries anytime, and never stop theory crafting as the devs stated they are still skimming topics to see if even parts of our ideas should be added and there is always dlc ;)

Still a Pounder trap that hits enemies does sound good, I just think it should not be auto kill but just heavy damage, say it would kill lower lv creatures and physically weak ones but merely stun the stronger kinds of minion. Would be a bit more balanced as it can kill careless creatures but a smart underkeeeper could scout ahead with say an Augre.
 
Jan 3, 2013
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#20
Better make it a stun trap witch can't be destroyed, doesn't do heavy damage and has an average recharge time, plus can instantly kill an imp. Perfect against lurkers and scouts. It could also force a possessed player out of the creature due to stun effect. Should become visible after the first use ( probably the trails from spikes on the ground beneath it ).
 
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