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DRAGONS

May 18, 2013
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Florida
#25
I think you even had to build your lair adjacent to water to attract them!
IIRC all they required was a 3x3 temple, but they were only available on maps with water (like Salamanders were only available on maps with lava in DK2) - and by the time you got a temple in the campaign, the only map with water was the last level.

They were also really bad units in general. They moved faster in water but even then they were slow and melee, and they didn't get any spells until level 8 or something.
 

James Hale

Templar
WFTO Backer
Jan 12, 2013
171
33
230
32
Purgatory
steamcommunity.com
#26
Yep, they had the ice spell.

By the way, the guy who suggested some sort of squid-type thing that is only visible when it attacks may be on to something there. I like the idea, and you could have it so that they can only do their special attacks in water (so they have a very basic attack when moving over land, but are very vulnerable) and prefer to hang around there. They'd still have a lair on land as normal, but their default behaviour would be to go into the water, where you could see them as a faint shadow/reflection, meaning they'd be hard for the enemy to spot unless they were looking for one in particular, but the player could spot them quite easily due to the little symbol hovering over their head.

Seeing creatures dragged off bridges or land tiles adjacent to water by mini-kraken type things would be awesome. Powerful creatures, but situational (water-based) and weak when on land.
 

Evi

Shadow
WFTO Backer
Nov 14, 2011
665
372
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#29
Thinking about it, if the Dragon was in DK2, it wouldn't of been up-to-par to DK1's Dragon.
And instead of wishing of there being a dragon, we would of been enraged at how they ruined the Dragon.
 
Likes: Amon

Reyh!

Crackpot
WFTO Backer
Dec 9, 2012
313
113
345
Norway
#30
Thinking about it, if the Dragon was in DK2, it wouldn't of been up-to-par to DK1's Dragon.
And instead of wishing of there being a dragon, we would of been enraged at how they ruined the Dragon.
Hehe..true. I'm kinda glad they didn't include it.. :p But i still missed it. :oops:
 
Likes: Amon

Castigator

Necromancer
WFTO Backer
Dec 30, 2012
433
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400
Germany
#31
Thinking about it, if the Dragon was in DK2, it wouldn't of been up-to-par to DK1's Dragon.
And instead of wishing of there being a dragon, we would of been enraged at how they ruined the Dragon.
Maybe, maybe.

But having no dragons at all is kinda lame. This is why I have proposed to introduce the dragon as the collective effort of the community instead of trying to talk the team into it. This would be a great opportunity to get the best dragon possible, while it would not distract the devs or would take too much of their time. The only thing the team has to do for that to happen is to set parameters, that a dragon has to meet. If the dragon ends up as a creature under your command, it will likely be very powerful, but not too overpowered and if the dragon serves as a boss, we can feel free to submit an epic dragon, that can kill/KO muliple units at once.
The only people, that don't want to introduce dragons are the ones, that fear this additional work would delay release of the game even further, which ceases to be an issue if Josh has to pick the best of a number of good and completed submissions. The only thing we'd need to do that is the Dungeoneer tool and the aforementioned specifics regarding dragons.
Sure, we can make this a very difficult decision by submitting several designs, that have AAA+ quality, but that wouldn't be a bad thing. What do you think about that?
 

Reyh!

Crackpot
WFTO Backer
Dec 9, 2012
313
113
345
Norway
#32
Maybe, maybe.

But having no dragons at all is kinda lame. This is why I have proposed to introduce the dragon as the collective effort of the community instead of trying to talk the team into it. This would be a great opportunity to get the best dragon possible, while it would not distract the devs or would take too much of their time. The only thing the team has to do for that to happen is to set parameters, that a dragon has to meet. If the dragon ends up as a creature under your command, it will likely be very powerful, but not too overpowered and if the dragon serves as a boss, we can feel free to submit an epic dragon, that can kill/KO muliple units at once.
The only people, that don't want to introduce dragons are the ones, that fear this additional work would delay release of the game even further, which ceases to be an issue if Josh has to pick the best of a number of good and completed submissions. The only thing we'd need to do that is the Dungeoneer tool and the aforementioned specifics regarding dragons.
Sure, we can make this a very difficult decision by submitting several designs, that have AAA+ quality, but that wouldn't be a bad thing. What do you think about that?
Well said! Also a nice thought of you to let the community take care of things like this, so that the developers can make the game super awsome. :)
 

Triscopic

Crackpot
WFTO Backer
Dec 11, 2012
280
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United Kingdom (Great Britain)
#33
That's an interesting idea in general... Why limit it to just dragons?

If the editor were available the devs could hold a contest to create additional monster types (presumably with a general steer like "create an infiltrator"), with the best one(s) going into the game in return for a free bonus copy or something. The main problem is that I doubt there would be a large number of people who are able to model & skin something up to the games standards, but its still an interesting idea.
 
#34
That's an interesting idea in general... Why limit it to just dragons?

If the editor were available the devs could hold a contest to create additional monster types (presumably with a general steer like "create an infiltrator"), with the best one(s) going into the game in return for a free bonus copy or something. The main problem is that I doubt there would be a large number of people who are able to model & skin something up to the games standards, but its still an interesting idea.
Hmm, if I count number of mods for some games... the dozens of mods created by dozens times more people... are there really no people who are able to model things? ;)

I wonder why we love so much Dragons, historical writings says a lot about them. We could say Dragons are the most beautiful and powerful living things in the world...
 
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Likes: Castigator
Sep 20, 2013
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Parts Unknown
#35
Most of our childhood series/games had a dragon in it. like Pokémon had a charizard, majesty had a dragon as well as DK 1 and nowadays dragons are still ''hot'' if we look at game of thrones or dragon commander. frankly to say: ''dragons never get old''
 
Likes: Reyh!
Oct 28, 2013
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#36
One of the best things about dragons, or bile demons, or fights in general in DK1, was they lasted for quite a while (remember the avatar battle?) DK2 it is over in a flash (and curse the fear mechanic!) Also, i don't see a problem with adding Dragons to the game, copyright wise..
 

Amon

Ember Demon
Apr 14, 2012
2,267
812
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Somewhere
subterraneangames.com
#37
Also, i don't see a problem with adding Dragons to the game, copyright wise..
That would be like a game company being told off for having elves, dwarves, goblins, giants etc. because someone else 'had it first'. Trust me, when it comes to classical mythological creatures, there is no ground for any lawyers to stand on. If it was something specifically for a game, like the dearly beloved Bile Demon [and, to a certain extent, the Horned Reaper, Mistress or Demon Spawn], then it would be another story...
 
Oct 28, 2013
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#38
That would be like a game company being told off for having elves, dwarves, goblins, giants etc. because someone else 'had it first'. Trust me, when it comes to classical mythological creatures, there is no ground for any lawyers to stand on. If it was something specifically for a game, like the dearly beloved Bile Demon [and, to a certain extent, the Horned Reaper, Mistress or Demon Spawn], then it would be another story...
It would be a bit cheeky for them to try it, but i wouldn't put it past them to have a go at it all the same. The good news being we can have vampires and all that other stuff!
 

AvatarIII

Ember Demon
WFTO Founder
Apr 20, 2012
1,713
759
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Worthing, West Sussex
#39
It's really not anything to do with copyright in this case.

the main reason i believe is that dragons just don't fit! The Augre already had to lose his tail because the tailed model simply didn't work in practice, assuming Dragon's can't really not have tails, they would have to be really compact, and upright, like DK1's goofy dragons, which probably wouldn't look right within WftO. So perhaps make them small flying dragons or walking dragons you might think? Well, flying dragons at that scale would be rather too similar to Bafus visually and in function and walking ones would be rather similar to Gargoyles visually and in fuction too, the only difference would be a fire breath ability.

honestly it probably wouldn't be too hard to reskin the gargoyle with a reptilian skin and give it a firebreath ability, so there is always that possibility for the future.
 

Castigator

Necromancer
WFTO Backer
Dec 30, 2012
433
237
400
Germany
#40
It's really not anything to do with copyright in this case.

the main reason i believe is that dragons just don't fit! The Augre already had to lose his tail because the tailed model simply didn't work in practice, assuming Dragon's can't really not have tails, they would have to be really compact, and upright, like DK1's goofy dragons, which probably wouldn't look right within WftO. So perhaps make them small flying dragons or walking dragons you might think? Well, flying dragons at that scale would be rather too similar to Bafus visually and in function and walking ones would be rather similar to Gargoyles visually and in fuction too, the only difference would be a fire breath ability.

honestly it probably wouldn't be too hard to reskin the gargoyle with a reptilian skin and give it a firebreath ability, so there is always that possibility for the future.
The simple reason, why you don't want to have dragons in the game is clipping? I disagree stongly, that a dragon wouldn't be fitting, especially because of the most acceptable break from reality video gaming has to offer. Since we don't simulate real matter and the only things that give a seblance of material and structure are complex polygons and textures, most gamers accept, that intersecting surfaces occur. If you aim for a physically sensible and correct simulation of a dungeon, you will have to use quantum computers. There are many instances of gaming and programming, where intersecting surfaces are simply more convenient. In World of Tanks, for instance, your gun's barrel will often intersect with the walls of buildings, when in real life, this would damage the gun and the turret, but it is left in, because the alternative would be too annoying for too many players.
If you don't want to make a model, that operates perfectly, I can relate, as it's pretty much impossible to achieve a dragon model, that can fly, walk, do all the other stuff and looks realistic under all circumstances, while still fitting a 1x1 tile. It would be pretty much extra work for the modelers, and I don't want to torture the team. The good thing is: You don't have to. If the editor allows for creature modding, there will be creature packs popping up soon after release. As I explained earlier, I will have my dragons, even if that means I have to learn to mod them in and remove the Bafu, I don't like it anyways, and the gargoyle, it should have stayed on a roof. That hopefully illustrates to what lengths I'd go to command dragons. Other modders might do so aswell.
While I don't understand the explicit reasons, why Bafu and Gargoyle would occupy a dragons role, they would be necessary casulties in my quest for dragons. If their mere existance prohibits the addition of dragons, I will nullyfy their impact on my games. However, I don't think that there won't be a way the three can coexist. There are 6.6 million species of insects, most have different roles.
The function of Bafus as I see them is that of a jailor unit, that abducts enemies and has a combat support role. The Gargoyle seems to hang around the vault and is a tank unit. While the myths certainly state, that dragons have hoards and abtuct maidens to serve them, that doesn't mean they would be too similar to either one mechanically. Their non-combat jobs shouldn't be too similar, but aside from lurking around your vault or abducting enemies, the dragons could scout, seek combat, steal enemy gold, guard gold veins or shrines, burninate wooden structures, cast irons in the workshop, stomp on peasants, or procrastinate.
A dragon could have a role of a flying harasser, like a F16, or could serve a bruiser role, that exploits the comination of good offense and reasonable survivability, with comparatively low mobility while on the ground. The difference is, that dragons also act as a mobile flamethrower. They can bypass physical defence, while I don't see those opportunities for the Gargoyle, who deals physical damage, or the Bafu, that relies on phisical, maybe poison related damage.
The dragons worth in combat might be offset by their fondness of gold and shiny things, you'd have to pay them for service, assuming there will be a payday mechanic. The one thing that is confusing to me mehanically, is the introduction of the beast pen. While it makes sense to give beastly minions appropriate lairs, the introduction seemed to imply, that all beasts will be mindless. I really hope this isn't the case, otherwise I had to bend the creature conventions.
I don't think the introduction of dragons is impossible of unfeasible and like I wrote earlier in this thread, they might just exist as thind party content, which is good enough for me and an excellent mod might ascend into the main game, if the modder and the team agree to do that, so I don't give up and try to give food for thought whenever possible.
 
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