• This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn more.

Dropping imps on unclaimed tiles

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jun 28, 2015
55
10
175
27
#1
I really feel the current mechanic of imps and unclaimed tiles is something that unbalances the game and makes it feel sloppy.

In my opinion they should be able to be dropped on every unclaimed dirt tile that is visible.
By visible I don't mean the Fog of War but the mechanic used in underminers and outposts.

Ofcourse it should not be possible when you use Prophecy.
 

Nutter

Inquisitor
WFTO Founder
Jan 19, 2013
2,453
1,092
590
29
Huddersfield, UK
nutter666.tumblr.com
#2
I really feel the current mechanic of imps and unclaimed tiles is something that unbalances the game and makes it feel sloppy.

In my opinion they should be able to be dropped on every unclaimed dirt tile that is visible.
By visible I don't mean the Fog of War but the mechanic used in underminers and outposts.

Ofcourse it should not be possible when you use Prophecy.
It's not really sloppy, you're just not understanding it properly (which is due to us not communicating it properly it would seem), they can only be dropped in your area of influence same as potions and other minions.

Allowing them to be dropped on unclaimed territory is even sloppier, since using your example, you can just drop an imp of the edges of visible ground, reveal more ground... pick it up again, drop it on the edge, repeat again and again til you can see as much of the map as you want... Who needs prophecy then?
 
Jun 28, 2015
55
10
175
27
#3
It's not really sloppy, you're just not understanding it properly (which is due to us not communicating it properly it would seem), they can only be dropped in your area of influence same as potions and other minions.

Allowing them to be dropped on unclaimed territory is even sloppier, since using your example, you can just drop an imp of the edges of visible ground, reveal more ground... pick it up again, drop it on the edge, repeat again and again til you can see as much of the map as you want... Who needs prophecy then?
I perfectly understand how it works, and that's why I suggest this improvement. You guys continue to ramble on about micromanaging but fail to understand lots of valid and good improvements that would allow a better metagame.

There's only a very small portion of maps that have pre-mined unclaimed tiles. So even if you were able to keep dropping it further and further, it wouldn't be far. On the other hand... you forgot the fact that if you pick the minion back up, the visibility also disappears. (which you should know, shame on you!)

Also, the fact that the imp task system is badly optimized just adds to the cause because when you're mining a big area, and your imps haven't claimed too much tiles yet, it's close to impossible to make imps mine those remaining walls without using the imp banner or letting imps claim tiles till your tiles catch up to the walls. (In the case of you having other imp tasks)

Anyways, updating this mechanic would be quite easy coding wise, so I don't see why it shouldn't be tested.
 

Lord of Riva

The Lord
WFTO Founder
Dec 29, 2012
2,786
923
540
31
#4
Anyways, updating this mechanic would be quite easy coding wise, so I don't see why it shouldn't be tested.

it is indeed very easy i would think and we do now the effects of what the change would entail. we decided against it as we knew how other DMGs managed it and the effects werent and arent wanted. this was a deliberate design decision and I personally do not agree that your suggestion suits the game better, but im also not the one who decides these things.

also while you may be correct in your other points there can be diferent solutions to these issues.
 
Jun 28, 2015
55
10
175
27
#5
it is indeed very easy i would think and we do now the effects of what the change would entail. we decided against it as we knew how other DMGs managed it and the effects werent and arent wanted. this was a deliberate design decision and I personally do not agree that your suggestion suits the game better, but im also not the one who decides these things.

also while you may be correct in your other points there can be diferent solutions to these issues.
I have a feeling you do not know what a meta game is. Here's a good explanation:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=metagame

Anyways, what effects aren't wanted? Try giving me some examples of scenarios where this implementation would be worse than the current one.
 

Simburgur

Managing Director
Brightrock Games
Nov 10, 2011
2,864
1,979
670
27
Brighton, UK
www.twitter.com
#6
Unsure how this would make the game less sloppy. You're introducing an entirely new territory paradigm for a single version of a specific action. The benefits are incredibly minor - you can make workers mine tiles they can't claim yet. Or am I missing something?
 
Jun 28, 2015
55
10
175
27
#7
Unsure how this would make the game less sloppy. You're introducing an entirely new territory paradigm for a single version of a specific action. The benefits are incredibly minor - you can make workers mine tiles they can't claim yet. Or am I missing something?
Have a look at this scenario (Frost = tagged dirt):


As you can see, right now the only way of mining those last rocks (if there are no imps nearby) is to drop them on the claimed tiles. This destroys your metagame because it limits micromanaging. Right now you can only "wait" till your imps run all the way over there, which in turn decreases the skill barrier because there isn't anything to micromanage in the meantime.

These little mechanics are what widens the skill barrier and makes it more interesting. Me and Shadowtouch have actually teamed up and we've been actively checking out the metagame and how to optimize our gameplay, trying to get those 2 second advantages. I can safely say that I know how a meta should work.

Oh, and here's another scenario: http://puu.sh/j4bo6/35b78b15d8.jpg
If you drop some workers on the north tiles, they will run to mine the second room and start claiming tiles, neglecting those upper 3.
You see where I'm going at?
 

Simburgur

Managing Director
Brightrock Games
Nov 10, 2011
2,864
1,979
670
27
Brighton, UK
www.twitter.com
#8
I do. You can use worker rally to focus them in a specific area. There's very, very little reason for you to want to do this though, which is why the default behavior is as it is and worker rally is a way to modify it if you choose.
 
Jun 28, 2015
55
10
175
27
#9
I do. You can use worker rally to focus them in a specific area. There's very, very little reason for you to want to do this though, which is why the default behavior is as it is and worker rally is a way to modify it if you choose.
The worker rally is alright, but isn't good in this case. Let's say I have 2 workers on the right room (second scenario) and 1 claiming tiles. If I put a worker rally flag up against the north tiles, there will be a minimum of 3 prioritized worker tasks open. It's more likely to become 6 though, as I'm sure the radius of the banner only has to touch a little bit of the rock to open up 3 more slots.

This means that my whole imp force will run all the way over there, when I could be micromanaging my imps and making sure I'm not wasting time. This is called the meta, and I'm starting to feel sad that the team does not care for this.

There isn't really a con in this mechanic either, as it's still based on visibility and imps don't really pose a threat anyways.

You guys should play a little more with your community and you'll notice that some people are VERY fast and have learned tons about the current mechanics already.
 

Simburgur

Managing Director
Brightrock Games
Nov 10, 2011
2,864
1,979
670
27
Brighton, UK
www.twitter.com
#10
The cons are pretty obvious to be honest - It's a UX nightmare to communicate something like this for the reasons I stated in my first post (especially if we only limit it to certain sources of vision). It's also not an easy change to make like you might think.

Now are those complete roadblocks? No, but if those are weighed up against the benefits of this change? It becomes pretty clear that this is not worth doing, even if I thought it was a good idea.
 
Jan 3, 2013
3,245
739
495
31
#11
Have a look at this scenario (Frost = tagged dirt):


As you can see, right now the only way of mining those last rocks (if there are no imps nearby) is to drop them on the claimed tiles. This destroys your metagame because it limits micromanaging. Right now you can only "wait" till your imps run all the way over there, which in turn decreases the skill barrier because there isn't anything to micromanage in the meantime.

These little mechanics are what widens the skill barrier and makes it more interesting. Me and Shadowtouch have actually teamed up and we've been actively checking out the metagame and how to optimize our gameplay, trying to get those 2 second advantages. I can safely say that I know how a meta should work.

Oh, and here's another scenario: http://puu.sh/j4bo6/35b78b15d8.jpg
If you drop some workers on the north tiles, they will run to mine the second room and start claiming tiles, neglecting those upper 3.
You see where I'm going at?
You may be surprised, but during the early expansion process, imp micromanagement is very important if you want to build rooms faster than your opponent. It strongly advised to relocate imps manually if there is any need of claiming or digging stuff, rather than tagging stuff and waiting for imps to do that for you.

The issue you are raising could be easily solved by manually dropping few imps around. Surely they wouldn't rush in and dig those 3 tiles, but in exchange they would claim all territory first, allowing you build your rooms on them, which in my opinion is far more important than spending time trying to dig those 3 tiles first and then beginning to claim dirt.
 
Likes: Lord of Riva

Psycix

Necromancer
WFTO Founder
Jan 9, 2013
834
305
410
#12
I agree, if you prioritize claiming (and you should, for maximum effectiveness), this is not an issue.
 
Jun 28, 2015
55
10
175
27
#13
Anyways, it was a simple scenario, and in this case it would indeed not matter if those upper tiles took longer or not. But all of you are missing the point here. I'm talking about micromanagement beyond the current limits.

Check out this video (DK1):
I don't even have to explain it, It clearly shows a perfect gameplay mechanic.

But, and because it should be added to a discussion:
Which would not be possible because WFTO has a visibility mechanic beyond the Fog of War, which DK1 has not.

I would also like to add that the visibility of shrines and constructs should not count as a valid reason of dropping them.
They should technically have the same sort of visibility as the Prophecy spell.

(If anybody is wondering where to get DK1, check out gog.com and download KeeperFX)
 
Last edited:
Likes: Phonix

Lord of Riva

The Lord
WFTO Founder
Dec 29, 2012
2,786
923
540
31
#14
just saying your interpretation of meta game takes another game with other mechanics and sais we should basically be another game?

the "meta" has to be in the ruleset of the game, so what you should do to play as efficient as you can is use what we have and plan ahead from that on. Dont forget that all players adhere to the same rules, playing the meta game means adapting to the game as well.

you cant use SC2 techniques in a CoD deathmatch
 
Likes: Phonix
Jun 28, 2015
55
10
175
27
#15
just saying your interpretation of meta game takes another game with other mechanics and sais we should basically be another game?

the "meta" has to be in the ruleset of the game, so what you should do to play as efficient as you can is use what we have and plan ahead from that on. Dont forget that all players adhere to the same rules, playing the meta game means adapting to the game as well.

you cant use SC2 techniques in a CoD deathmatch
I fully understand, but the current limitation is too big for a player coming from DK1.

Check out the current limit of 1 tile which you can perfectly see in the following screenshot.
That limit should at least go up to the imp that's mining over there. In my opinion even further.
+ The reason that the imp is mining there, should also make it possible.

 
Jan 3, 2013
3,245
739
495
31
#16
Imps prioritize mining over claiming in most cases in both games. The difference is you can easily relocate all your imps to gold seams or tagged area by dropping them on dirt wherever you like in DK, while in WFTO you can only do stuff on your owned land.

So instead of losing time waiting for imps to mine that huge chunk of gold, you can make them claim already mined area and continue expansion. It isn't really hard thing to do, just drop some on your tiles near dirt while they are digging the rest of the tagged area.
 
Jun 28, 2015
55
10
175
27
#17
Imps prioritize mining over claiming in most cases in both games. The difference is you can easily relocate all your imps to gold seams or tagged area by dropping them on dirt wherever you like in DK, while in WFTO you can only do stuff on your owned land.

So instead of losing time waiting for imps to mine that huge chunk of gold, you can make them claim already mined area and continue expansion. It isn't really hard thing to do, just drop some on your tiles near dirt while they are digging the rest of the tagged area.
Are you mocking me? I know how the mechanics work. That's why I insist this improvement. Lets say I need the minions to dig out the gold first so they don't waste time bringing it to my core. And then when it's all mined, I can start building rooms while the imps prioritize other tasks. I could even calculate it so as soon as the last piece of gold is mined, the last tile gets claimed and I build a treasury over it. This way it's insta-claimed and packed in your coffers.

There are too many possibilities of why this limitation is such a meta breaker.
 

Nutter

Inquisitor
WFTO Founder
Jan 19, 2013
2,453
1,092
590
29
Huddersfield, UK
nutter666.tumblr.com
#18
The point of a meta is to learn how to work the game's mechanics as efficiently as possible to become the best at using them. Not to complain that the mechanics don't work in a particular way so you don't have to learn to work them. The limitations apply to everybody, so learning how to micromanage your imps in this game to be more efficient is how you can overcome those limitations. It isn't a metabreaker, it's just a new meta you still need to get used/adapt to.

You've had replies from pretty much half the QA team now, and much more importantly from the Lead Designer himself, telling you why this isn't going to happen, by all means continue the discussion if you like, but with Simburgur weighing in and saying no. That's pretty much the end of the matter. It's not going to change.
 

Simburgur

Managing Director
Brightrock Games
Nov 10, 2011
2,864
1,979
670
27
Brighton, UK
www.twitter.com
#19
By your logic you wouldn't be able to drop them by those tagged tiles as they are outside your vision range.
I would also like to add that the visibility of shrines and constructs should not count as a valid reason of dropping them.
They should technically have the same sort of visibility as the Prophecy spell.
And again, this is just creating a system that makes no sense unless you know exactly how it behaves.

I'm just going to be blunt about it: This is not a good idea and we won't be making this change.
 
Likes: Nutter
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom