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Dungeoneer Toolkit Scrapped?

mishko

Witch Doctor
Founder
Feb 27, 2012
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#1
Hello I just read about how the Dungeoneer Toolkit was scrapped. I have a few questions. Will there still be steam workshop support? If there is no Dungeoneer Toolkit, then how will we make any mods at all? Or maybe I misread and it will eventually be added after release?
 

Enjou

Ember Demon
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Jan 10, 2012
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#2
Here's a couple of responses from the team in Dec. from the modding forum:

Part of what followed out of this entire issue is that it is unsure when the Dungeoneer will be released. It is currently lower on the priority list while we work on the actual game first. We'll keep you posted on modding and mapping, but it'll be a bit before we'll have any significant news in that department.
The full scope of what Dungeoneer will be able to do has yet to be determined, we'll certainly be pushing to make the program as robust as possible but we don't want to make any promises in what can and cannot be modded, so I won't elaborate on that. However Map Editing will be our target for a bare minimum and we will be aiming to make that available to players as soon as is feasible.
Basically we'll get a map editor at the least, but hopefully more. Dungeoneer isn't completely scrapped, just low on the totem pole of things to do and what features it ends up having isn't fully determined yet.
 
Nov 13, 2013
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#3
From what I understand, yes, dungeoneer was scrapped. however, I don't think mod support was scrapped. I think the reason being that dungeoner was very ambitious and was intended to allow to manipulate basically everything in the game in any way, but it was taking way to long to make the game while allowing all the variables to be easily manipulable, so they had to scale back. I think there will be some form of modding available, probably a map editor at the very least. Also the devs are planning on supporting the game after release which could include expanding modding support and tools, so what amount of modding is avaliable at release does not mean that we will be stuck with that level of modding for ever (hopefully).
 
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mishko

Witch Doctor
Founder
Feb 27, 2012
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#4
I'm glad at least mod support is going to most likely be in it still. It would be cool if some dungeon keeper fans made a dungeon keeper mod.
 
Jan 3, 2013
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#5
From what I understand, yes, dungeoneer was scrapped. however, I don't think mod support was scrapped. I think the reason being that dungeoner was very ambitious and was intended to allow to manipulate basically everything in the game in any way, but it was taking way to long to make the game while allowing all the variables to be easily manipulable, so they had to scale back. I think there will be some form of modding available, probably a map editor at the very least. Also the devs are planning on supporting the game after release which could include expanding modding support and tools, so what amount of modding is avaliable at release does not mean that we will be stuck with that level of modding for ever (hopefully).
We still will need an Editor that can do something more, not just edit existing maps. There certainly will be a need of few extra options like trigger editing, AI editing and object management ( so we can put or remove things from the map ). Sadly, it's still unknown what will the released Editor allow us to do, we can only hope it will let us do something interesting.
 

mastersam911

Firebreather
Aug 18, 2013
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#6
Well, when they fully release the game, why don't they release a 'buggy' version of a editor/mod creation kit, then people can get a feel and then it will be a side project of feedback and hotfixes in it.
 

mastersam911

Firebreather
Aug 18, 2013
401
43
275
#8
Because building that 'buggy' version of the editor/creation kit still requires coders to spend time developing it... time that they would be better spending on building the actual game.
I mean like a two-4 weeks after the game is released, so they have a more finalised version of the game before building a mod kit for it.
 

Nutter

Frost Weaver
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Jan 19, 2013
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#9
That's not how it works, they can't just add something as big as an editor/creation kit at the end as an afterthought. The entire game framework has to be able to work with the editor so the editing process has to be considered the whole way through development. The whole reason Dungeoneer crippled them for so long was because they were trying to make it work alongside (or rather before) building the game.

To give you an example, say you wanted to mod in a new unit.

1. Model the new unit in whatever 3d modelling software you use
2. Texture it and export it etc,
3. Import it into the game.

But at that point, how does the game know what to do with that model you've imported into the game? How do you set it's stats and abilities, how do you create new abilities for it. This is all stuff that needs to be built into the game engine to start with, tacking it on the end won't work.

A Level editor is somewhat easier since it just uses assets currently in the game (although triggers and other event type stuff are still potentially tricky), they can't really just spend a few weeks after the game is done and magically get Dungeoneer working. With any luck though, they will be able to use the same triggers and event type code they're using for the campaign to allow us to make advanced maps with special events as opposed to normal skirmish battle to the death maps.
 

Simburgur

Managing Director
Dev Team
Nov 10, 2011
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#11
Yes Dungeoneer has been scrapped, but as for scrapping mod support entirely? Well, we can't give you a solid answer as we aren't entirely sure yet.

We certainly want some level of mod support and are certainly going to be looking at it when we have the time, but the game comes first and that is our focus right now.

Our goal is to have a basic map editor with Steam Workshop support at (or shortly after) release, and then we'll see how far we can take that later down the road.
 
Jan 7, 2012
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#12
Maybe we could get some tools and toys as free dlcs some months afterwards.
I dont think it will be sooo hard to create some new skins and models,
Also other indie games are noteworthy: Legend of Grimrock is a dungeon crawler that released a plain map editor some months after its release. Some skilled fans of the game build tools themselves which made the implementattion of models textures and even animations(!) possible. Now there are a lot of complex mod for log around.

If the wfto will be a good game which will atracct more players , the skilled ones of the new extended fanbase may help the developers out afterwards.
 

Fireeye

Augre
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Dec 30, 2012
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#15
I have no clue about programming and all that coding stuff, so I just looked how other games developed...
Can you please tell me whats the problem with editing unity?
As a matter of fact I have no clue about coding either, but from what I understand, many Indie games jumped unto the Unity train and eventually had to bother with various forms of engine-side limitations.
 

Nutter

Frost Weaver
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Jan 19, 2013
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#17
Yes Dungeoneer has been scrapped, but as for scrapping mod support entirely? Well, we can't give you a solid answer as we aren't entirely sure yet.

We certainly want some level of mod support and are certainly going to be looking at it when we have the time, but the game comes first and that is our focus right now.

Our goal is to have a basic map editor with Steam Workshop support at (or shortly after) release, and then we'll see how far we can take that later down the road.
I know you don't wanna tie yourself down or make promises you may not be able to keep but when you say basic.. how basic are we talking?

Something as basic as you start with a map full of dirt and can add stuff? Or are you hoping to have stuff like triggers available in the "basic" editor?
 

Mozared

Juggernaut
Founder
Feb 17, 2013
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#18
I know you don't wanna tie yourself down or make promises you may not be able to keep but when you say basic.. how basic are we talking?

Something as basic as you start with a map full of dirt and can add stuff? Or are you hoping to have stuff like triggers available in the "basic" editor?
I can't speak for Simburgur but I'm assuming basic as in "can set a map size, paint tiles, multiple factions as well as some basic triggers (create object, move camera, unlock sin)". AFAIK that doesn't take a particularly large amount of time. It's supporting more advanced triggers/custom coding and on-the-fly unit and ability editing that would take long for implementation.
 
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Simburgur

Managing Director
Dev Team
Nov 10, 2011
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#19
Triggers are unlikely to happen for the basic editor.

If we find a way to release our internal level editor in a decent way, then you'll be able to do almost anything we can in a level, but we haven't even started to look at if this is possible yet.
 
Jan 3, 2013
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#20
Triggers are unlikely to happen for the basic editor.

If we find a way to release our internal level editor in a decent way, then you'll be able to do almost anything we can in a level, but we haven't even started to look at if this is possible yet.
I sincerely hope you guys will add trigger and AI tweaking support. These things will keep single player aka skirmish mode alive like forever since people will be able to make tons of custom maps with interesting options, maybe even a custom campaign pack and share them to others.
 
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