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Dungeoneer Toolkit Scrapped?

Nutter

Frost Weaver
Founder
Jan 19, 2013
2,448
1,090
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Huddersfield, UK
nutter666.tumblr.com
#21
In my ideal world, the Editor for this would resemble the Warcraft 3 World Editor... personally I think that's one of the best game editors out there. I know it shows its age now with the low res character models and stuff but it's powerful under the hood and you can do a lot with it. I realise that's a LOT more advanced than you're intending (atleast at first, hopefully you can expand past just basic once the game is closer to done) but it handles a lot of the stuff you guys might want/need in an editor so it might be worth checking out how they handled stuff in it (assuming you've never seen it before, which you may well have).

Handles stuff like unit creation and ability editing really well by basically using current abilities or units as a template and then you edit that template (change the model appearance, stats, effects/buffs in the case of abilities) and the way they did the trigger/event system is pretty easy to pick up, even for non-coder people so is ideal for casual modders.
 
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Likes: Evi

mishko

Witch Doctor
Founder
Feb 27, 2012
866
238
440
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Michigan
#22
I hope after release you can find a way to slowly and carefully rework the code to support mods easier. I would definitely pay more money for a Dungeoneer toolkit if you worked on it after release. Maybe release it as a separate item on steam that people could pay for? I think that might be a good way to do it without going bankrupt.
 

mastersam911

Firebreather
Aug 18, 2013
401
43
275
#23
Ever-so-slightly-off-topic
I think dungeon keeper 2 still has a few people making mods for it, I could be wrong there.
The greatest two examples of Mods and Game working together is the PC version of the elder scrolls series and Garrys Mod

So, crack on with the actual game, but , keep in mind will coding/scripting about a creation kit.
PS. Please add at a later date some easter egg units
 

fantasm0

Priestess
Backer
Nov 14, 2011
46
11
215
24
#24
A release without a decent map editor (triggers/aisettings etc) would not be a 'real' release for me, it is a must have feature. Once again a promise from kickstarter is off the board,I really should not have backed this project...
 
Likes: desdicado
Sep 20, 2013
107
50
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Parts Unknown
#25
Hold your horses! We will see what we get when the game launches. Until that time it will be just speculation about things to come. Be happy they didn't decide to stop the project. That dungeoneer idea almost killed them.

About kickstarter.. as an investor you take a risk, but don't judge your investment until you are able to collect its fruits. BTW how long are we waiting for a spiritual successor for Dungeon Keeper?
 

Jobs2k

Skarg
Backer
Dec 29, 2012
390
149
370
Stevenage, England
www.minecraftforum.net
#26
Once again a promise from kickstarter is off the board,I really should not have backed this project...
Yes, one of the many promises they made, admittedly naively, when they stepped forward in an attempt to spark new life into a genre that seemed to have so sadly died has been unfortunately scrapped in order to salvage as many of the other promises they made. It doesn't necessarily mean we have to grab our pitchforks.

They literally said that they had a choice: Keep struggling to keep all promises and end up bankrupt while letting us all down or make that hard decision to let us down on one promise in order to hold on to as many others as they could. They chose the option that would make the game.
I hate the fact that they had to make that choice. I wanted to see Dungeoneer. I am actually disheartened to see it's essentially off the table completely.
Do I therefore feel they have screwed me for my money? No, not at all. Once more they have stepped up, explained their error and accepted full responsibility, shown how sorry they are and managed to soldier on after such a huge setback in time and finance.
Anyone wanting to hold up the name of another developer that will do that? The closest one I can think of is Digital Extremes (developers of Warframe) but even they run things with a very privacy oriented diplomacy. They also have Gamers First looking over their shoulders to some level and the atrocities they have visited upon APB: Reloaded are shocking.
That's one other company in a very large stagnant pond of money orientated companies.
For the foreseeable future I'll happily cling to the rope SG is offering me and I believe they have the ability to get us all out of that pond.

...

No pressure guys! :D
 

mishko

Witch Doctor
Founder
Feb 27, 2012
866
238
440
24
Michigan
#27
Usually to hit a target you have to aim for the bullseye and not just the target in general. I think their high ambitions will make the game really good.
 

RMJ

Priestess
Jan 3, 2013
168
57
215
34
Denmark
#28
I'm sure it will be unscrapped after the game is released. why?. well because smaller devs are smart. How do you make money, lots of money? you provide unlimited content and modding for your game, thus increasing lifespan and sales.

But again, obviously the main game has priority because that alone will also spike sales for money to work on dungeoneer.
 

Psycix

Dryad
Founder
Jan 9, 2013
834
305
395
#29
Hmm. As disappointed I am with this news, at least this saves me months worth of future free time.
 
Feb 12, 2014
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#30
I'm new here and so may be jumping in a little early with suggestions about how to design a game, but as an interested hobbyist coder I can't help but put this forward. I often have a habit (which when the underlying engine base is sound, works well) of building the content-creation tools into the actual game engine and providing an interface that can switch from 'edit mode' to 'game mode' virtually on-the-fly. For the map-creation side of things in a game like this, this idea works especially well because 'map creation' boils down to selecting the areas to dig out/modify and running the imps in something akin to 'immediate mode' to do the work. (Yes, I've actually done this to good effect - in fact it was the only fully-functional 'AI' I've ever written that worked as intended. *lol*)

Of course, doing it like that would obviously include a lot of shortcuts/cheats/tasks in 'edit mode' that are useless in 'game mode' and the editor would essentially have to grow somewhat inline with the game. However, the benefits include having a single core codebase for both the engine and the tools in one place (shared code means less code and less issues with making everything work together correctly) and the ability to almost immediately playtest any changes to a map or scenario in real time.

That said and assuming you don't do that, I think working on the game itself and pushing a player-geared editor onto the backburner is absolutely the right call; deliver a top game (which I don't doubt it will be) and the masses will beg for it.
 

Jobs2k

Skarg
Backer
Dec 29, 2012
390
149
370
Stevenage, England
www.minecraftforum.net
#31
[...]deliver a top game (which I don't doubt it will be) and the masses will beg for it.
Erm... we have been since Kickstarter (some before that). I think the concept you put forward of building Dungeoneer along with the game was exactly what they were aiming to do, unfortunately it was just not working and was slowing development to the point of bankruptcy. Now we are all crossing our fingers that there is a possibility the functionality will be able to be put in after the game is released.
 
Feb 12, 2014
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#32
Erm... we have been since Kickstarter (some before that).
Oh, I don't doubt that...but in this case by 'masses' I meant the rest of the world who haven't cottoned on to this yet. Honestly, I wish I had known about it when it Kickstarted.
 

mastersam911

Firebreather
Aug 18, 2013
401
43
275
#33
Considering Mods are made for games that don't even have a toolkit released for them, im pretty sure some coders will get their hands coded with the game and release content for it.
 
Nov 8, 2013
145
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Finland
#34
I for one can't understand how they think they are saving any time by coding every level straight into the game instead of making a proper level editor and using it to make the campaign levels. There already has been bug reports where they are not sure if the problem comes from some error in the code or from the level itself.
 
Nov 8, 2013
145
153
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Finland
#36
How do you know they have a level editor? They might as well have the map data on a text file with a table that holds the descriptions of the content of the tiles and some script to hold the information on triggered events. They might be editing the cells of these tables by hand on a text editor. If they already have a level editor that does all that for them, why not put it with the game when it's complete and make a editor with easy-to-use GUI later on?
 

Peetfighter

Juggernaut
Founder
Jan 23, 2013
1,527
580
520
25
The Netherlands
www.youtube.com
#37
How do you know they have a level editor? They might as well have the map data on a text file with a table that holds the descriptions of the content of the tiles and some script to hold the information on triggered events. They might be editing the cells of these tables by hand on a text editor. If they already have a level editor that does all that for them, why not put it with the game when it's complete and make a editor with easy-to-use GUI later on?
We've seen the level editor multiple times on livestreams, that's how we know it exists.
 

Nutter

Frost Weaver
Founder
Jan 19, 2013
2,448
1,090
615
28
Huddersfield, UK
nutter666.tumblr.com
#38
And because Sim mentioned it somewhere else...

You are right that such a thing would be relatively easy to add on a single map (our internal editor actually already has all of these events), but the issue is that we then have to maintain this, and when we are constantly adding to our editor and map tools, maintaining a 'hacked in' feature such as this just becomes a drag on development. 'My Little Dungeon' was meant to fill this void (and it requires fixing all the time... :) ).

The harder part obviously comes with them actually building a dungeon - that's far more complicated.
 

Simburgur

Managing Director
Dev Team
Nov 10, 2011
2,864
1,979
705
26
Brighton, UK
www.twitter.com
#39
How do you know they have a level editor? They might as well have the map data on a text file with a table that holds the descriptions of the content of the tiles and some script to hold the information on triggered events. They might be editing the cells of these tables by hand on a text editor. If they already have a level editor that does all that for them, why not put it with the game when it's complete and make a editor with easy-to-use GUI later on?
Because currently:
  • It runs inside Unity (pro)
  • It's extremely unstable
  • It's extremely prone to user error
  • It requires access to all of our raw assets
  • There is no documentation supporting it
Edit: And:
  • Maps need to be compiled with the game and cannot be added afterwards
However, this is all subject to change as we do want to try and release this at some point.
 
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