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Fortified walls- dig through ?

Fortified walls

  • We have the ability to dig fortified walls

    Votes: 9 64.3%
  • We do not have the ability to dig fortified walls

    Votes: 5 35.7%

  • Total voters
    14

Valtiel

Priestess
Aug 28, 2014
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41
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#43
I still have a question that I think is pertinent to this discussion. Do you get any kind of warning or indication when an Underminer is set up outside your walls? Because if not, it's going to be very hard to see it coming. The advantage of the Hellfire potion lies in the complete lack of any such warning to the defender (and possibly increased effectiveness against Augrum/Garrison), and I want these two options to be balanced but different.

Also, I've read the description of the Soul Well on WFTO Wednesday, and there's no mention of the "attack through walls" functionality that Skorp originally said that it had. Is this an error in the description or has its function changed since Skorp last saw it?
 
Last edited:

Nutter

Frost Weaver
WFTO Founder
Jan 19, 2013
2,453
1,094
610
31
Huddersfield, UK
nutter666.tumblr.com
#44
I still have a question that I think is pertinent to this discussion. Do you get any kind of warning or indication when an Underminer is set up outside your walls? Because if not, it's going to be very hard to see it coming. The advantage of the Hellfire potion lies in the complete lack of any such warning to the defender (and possibly increased effectiveness against Augrum/Garrison), and I want these two options to be balanced but different.

Also, I've read the description of the Soul Well on WFTO Wednesday, and there's no mention of the "attack through walls" functionality that Skorp originally said that it had. Is this an error in the description or has its function changed since Skorp last saw it?
Re Underminer:
I'm pretty sure you have vision to 1.5 tiles outside your walls, so you'd see it.. if you were looking that way, but other than that.. no, you don't get like an RR line or a notification.. But you should see an imp dancing to channel/summon it long before it's useable, so it's not as "undetectable" as you might think.

Re Well of Souls; I don't think the "soul drain" area of effect is anywhere near big enough to reach through walls... but if it was.. then it probably would work since I don't believe walls block the effect.
 

Skorp

Gargoyle
Feb 1, 2014
290
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#45
In the stream where the Soul Well was revealed they talked about how it could be used behind walls. I dont know if that's still the plan.
 
Likes: mishko
Mar 10, 2015
7
3
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#46
Then stop whining about lack of gold.

/case dismissed.
Wow.. sure thats a way to handle it. If you think transmutation pot is a good way of making Gold you don't play the game im playing. Avarice is weak early and thats where you need gold. And you have to get prisoners first to use Blood Money.
For turtling players it's not that bad but turtling only works against bots.
 
Mar 10, 2015
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#47
Maybe Hellfire need a little buff to be a End Game option. If you want to use it to suprise your enemy you should probably be a able to use it anywhere near your creatues. Because you don't want to blow up your own walls anyway and how much suprise can it be if you already own a tile next to your enemies wall.
 

Valtiel

Priestess
Aug 28, 2014
94
41
205
36
#48
Wow.. sure thats a way to handle it. If you think transmutation pot is a good way of making Gold you don't play the game im playing. Avarice is weak early and thats where you need gold. And you have to get prisoners first to use Blood Money.
For turtling players it's not that bad but turtling only works against bots.
Can you Blood Money your own minions? It sounds like a poor trade, but there are times when the extra gold is more useful than the creature would be.

Also, does Blood Money always give the same amount of gold, or does it vary with creature type/level?
 
Jan 3, 2013
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#49
Can you Blood Money your own minions? It sounds like a poor trade, but there are times when the extra gold is more useful than the creature would be.

Also, does Blood Money always give the same amount of gold, or does it vary with creature type/level?
You shouldn't even skill blood money honestly.

People underestimate the power of Avarice. It's the best and most reliable endless source of gold. Neither Gold Potion nor Blood Money can compete against it.
 

Lord of Riva

The Lord
WFTO Founder
Dec 29, 2012
2,786
923
540
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#50
Can you Blood Money your own minions? It sounds like a poor trade, but there are times when the extra gold is more useful than the creature would be.

Also, does Blood Money always give the same amount of gold, or does it vary with creature type/level?

hrm there are quite a few dismissable units you can use for Bloodmoney. beasts (the skargs and occuli) are wonderful gold farms. Not because they are not useful in a fight but because they spawn really fast again.

a wonderful technique is to drop all your beasts and the easy to spawn intelligents into the crypt and use uprising. you should have a look at that.

regarding the effectiveness of the Udnerminer:
In my last 4player game i defended against an incoming enemy with money, assembly and bombards if you see an underminer comming you can easily defend the breach in a few seconds. remember that you can save the ritual execution.

when im attacking im trying to breach more than one point at a time so the enemy cant react but do not forget that the underminer costs a lot of money as well.
 
Jan 3, 2013
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#51
hrm there are quite a few dismissable units you can use for Bloodmoney. beasts (the skargs and occuli) are wonderful gold farms. Not because they are not useful in a fight but because they spawn really fast again.

a wonderful technique is to drop all your beasts and the easy to spawn intelligents into the crypt and use uprising. you should have a look at that.

regarding the effectiveness of the Udnerminer:
In my last 4player game i defended against an incoming enemy with money, assembly and bombards if you see an underminer comming you can easily defend the breach in a few seconds. remember that you can save the ritual execution.

when im attacking im trying to breach more than one point at a time so the enemy cant react but do not forget that the underminer costs a lot of money as well.
Actually, beasts don't really respawn quickly. At least 15 seconds have to pass before random beast has a chance to enter. Sacrifice Oculus and you will have to wait for a while until they come back. Gold provided from using blood money on them is not worth it.

Regarding walls - there's no point in attacking right now if you don't have underminer unlocked. Opponent can stop you from pushing further with simple walls - imps take decade before they manage to breach 1 enemy wall, before they break through, your opponent will already greet you with traps and own creatures. This part of the game is specifically balanced around underminer and hellfire potion.
 
Mar 19, 2015
27
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The lair
#52
Regarding the original concept, I'm kinda of the opinion that fortified walls should be impenetrable through normal means... That's one of the things I liked about DK1, that you had to make an actual effort (read: tremor) to screw with the enemy's defenses, and you couldn't risk expanding close to enemy forces because then they could chomp through the dirt wall and get into the breach.

With how things are shaping up in WFTO with hellfire, underminer et al, I would've expected that they'd have gone the DK1 route of impenetrable walls. Or, rather, "undiggable" walls, as you can of course blast through them or find some other means of weakening them enough to allow for a dig. It also increases the importance of doors, because they can be breached easily through normally means, and just turtling up completely while your opponent takes control of the entire rest of the map isn't generally going to work too well for you.

You could also "shore up" walls from the inside when an enemy was trying to dig through them in DK2, and I always thought it was a bit strange, in all honesty... It's like your imps are somehow managing to reach through the dirt in order to repair the other side of it.

But hey, whatever gets picked as being the default, I think there should be an option to change it. Even DK2 after a couple patches had the skirmish option to make fortified walls impenetrable.
 

Skorp

Gargoyle
Feb 1, 2014
290
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#53
Regarding the original concept, I'm kinda of the opinion that fortified walls should be impenetrable through normal means... That's one of the things I liked about DK1, that you had to make an actual effort (read: tremor) to screw with the enemy's defenses, and you couldn't risk expanding close to enemy forces because then they could chomp through the dirt wall and get into the breach.

With how things are shaping up in WFTO with hellfire, underminer et al, I would've expected that they'd have gone the DK1 route of impenetrable walls. Or, rather, "undiggable" walls, as you can of course blast through them or find some other means of weakening them enough to allow for a dig. It also increases the importance of doors, because they can be breached easily through normally means, and just turtling up completely while your opponent takes control of the entire rest of the map isn't generally going to work too well for you.

You could also "shore up" walls from the inside when an enemy was trying to dig through them in DK2, and I always thought it was a bit strange, in all honesty... It's like your imps are somehow managing to reach through the dirt in order to repair the other side of it.

But hey, whatever gets picked as being the default, I think there should be an option to change it. Even DK2 after a couple patches had the skirmish option to make fortified walls impenetrable.
There will be mutators to alter game settings and indestructible walls is pretty much confirmed (they mentioned it in a livestream). There is also a defense, the augrum wall. that acts as an unminable wall that can only be weakened by explosions.
 
Mar 19, 2015
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The lair
#54
So augrum is actually unminable now? Just last version it only served as a double-health version of normal wall, so far as I could tell. Haven't done much proper testing with it, mind.

Does seem like the fitting mid-way point between Dungeon Keepers 1 and 2.
 
Jan 3, 2013
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#55
So augrum is actually unminable now? Just last version it only served as a double-health version of normal wall, so far as I could tell. Haven't done much proper testing with it, mind.

Does seem like the fitting mid-way point between Dungeon Keepers 1 and 2.
As far as I know, you need to mine a tile out first and put this one on it's place, which means it will take quite a lot of time before you protect yourself with a line of these walls. Plus, they cost lots of money.
 
Mar 19, 2015
27
4
170
The lair
#56
They cost obscene amounts of money and are waaaay down the Sloth tree. I ain't saying it's balanced (yet), just that it seems like they're going for another midway point between the two games.
 

Psycix

Necromancer
WFTO Founder
Jan 9, 2013
834
305
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#57
They are endgame and I actually find them quite well balanced. (especially compared to most things in the game)
 
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