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Game is too "rushy" / pacing issues

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TheTrooper1138

Disciple
WFTO Backer
Jan 4, 2013
6
9
145
Germany
#1
First of all, I think you guys did an excellent jobs (release hick-ups aside) at re-creating the old Dungeon Keeper II feeling.
One thing that bothers me a bit though, is the rushy nature of the gameplay. You rarely have any time to build your dungeon, achievements practically encourage you to speed-run the game (and personally I hate speed-runs in any sort of game, but as an achievement whore I will get them all in this game nonetheless ;-)) and so does the AI.
I've played 2 Skirmishes on the highest difficulty so far, first time I was trying to build my dungeon, but I had hardly built the basics, when the opponent's Imps started digging into my dungeon and from that point on it was constant fighting, until I just used the rally banners and (easily) overran the enemy's dungeon heart. Second Skirmish I wasn't even trying much build-up anymore, just built the basics (lair, beast pen, hatchery, training-room, library, forge) and then started moving towards the enemy, building a few more things on the way (crypt, tavern, prison), but none of those came even close to being used as I then again easily overran his dungeon heart (Master difficulty again).

So yeah, I don't know how to fix this, since I don't know anything about game-development, but what I as a player would like is a more flexible gameplay, that allows me to at least build my dungeon a bit before being rushed by the enemy. I don't mind rushing staying a viable strategy, but at the moment the game forces me into it, as the opponent almost immediately engages me every time.
Also, I think the whole speed-run achievement thing isn't really in the spirit of what Dungeon Keeper was all about (at least for me), as I always enjoyed building my dungeons the most, not rushing through the game, but heck, they're in now, so I might as well do them, but I would prefer you focus more on dungeon-building in the future, instead of zerg-rush gameplay.
Just my 2 cents, anyway, I still enjoy the game so far (at least when I can play it, since the crashes prevent me from playing it much more at the moment) and I congratulate you on getting the atmosphere of the originals exactly right!
"It's night-time, underlord... though down here, it's hard to tell the difference" *evil laugh*
This and the likes make me chuckle or at least grin like an idiot every time. xD
Also pics related, that's exactly what a Dungeon Kee- uhm, I mean "War for the Overworld" game needs.
 

Attachments

Apr 4, 2015
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#2
I would love an option in settings to adjust the game speed. I have no idea how difficult it would be code wise to accomplish this but it would be well worth it. It would not only solve the pacing issue, but it would give the player time to actually "design" their dungeon instead of just slapping down rooms as fast as you can. The computer can manage their entire dungeon all at the same time, but players can only work on what fits on their screen. While we are panning around, the computer never stops constructing.
 
Likes: Marko K. S.

ShadowDragon8685

Dwarven Worker
Dec 24, 2014
9
1
25
34
#3
Slowing down the gameplay speed wouldn't solve the problem, because the AI is still advancing just as fast.

I agree, though - WftO is much, much too rushy compared to DK2. I want time to savor my dungeon, to build it up to my satisfaction, not go through a series of predetermined steps that equal to victory on a given map and then rush on to the next.
 
Likes: Marko K. S.
Apr 3, 2015
23
8
50
27
#4
agreed! It takes the fun out of the game if you feel rushed. In DK 1 and 2 some levels took me a few hours to beat do and those were my favorite levels. Leave rushing to multiplayer, and let players have a more relaxing AND challenging exp in other modes
 
Likes: Marko K. S.

Randy19

Firebreather
Apr 16, 2014
227
81
265
25
Germany
#5
I agree there. Those "Go and kill 300 endlessly spawning mobs after 10 minutes preparations" are not what a Dungeon Management should be like. For that matter i'd also like some bigger skimish maps. Or rather i hope that in the skimish overhaul there will be some bigger maps. These small maps force you into confrontation much earlier than a game about building up your forces before you do anything should.

The Gamespeed is ok, especially because any slider or whatever for this could only lead to problems in Multiplayer one way or another.
 
Likes: Marko K. S.
Feb 17, 2013
6
1
120
43
Cardiff
#6
Yeah i completely agree the game is absolutely brilliant they didnt level cap the creatures which was a huge plus for this game for me. I would like much longer drawn out campaign and skirmish games please too :p.

Also I would absolutely positively be forever grateful for the ability to create custom maps and campaigns.
 
Likes: Marko K. S.

Randy19

Firebreather
Apr 16, 2014
227
81
265
25
Germany
#7
Yeah i completely agree the game is absolutely brilliant they didnt level cap the creatures which was a huge plus for this game for me. I would like much longer drawn out campaign and skirmish games please too :p.

Also I would absolutely positively be forever grateful for the ability to create custom maps and campaigns.
I don't think you can create campaigns but they already announced that they will make a map editor.
 

Nirual

Blood Imp
Apr 6, 2015
3
3
15
33
#8
I have to agree the campaign relies far too much on that, even ignoring the time achievements (its a fair thing to do as an added challenge for seasoned players), too many missions are just rushing up a strong defense (and the entire rest of the dungeon, you have practically nothing pre-built). C7 was especially bad in that area with an outright brutal onslaught right from the get go, rather than building up the pressure over time with some breaks to rebuild defenses and let your minions rest and heal.
 

Webby

Gnarling
Apr 6, 2015
7
7
40
40
Wales
#9
I agree also, there does seem to be a rush feel about the game. DK was never about that. The mission with the attacks down the 3 paths was a bit silly, didnt get time to really get a good defence down and just ended up picking up all my minions and dropping them at each lane as the enemy moved down. Killed all the enemys and then repeat, little boring tbh. Each wave came in fast, so i didnt even bother with traps in the end, just moving my drop army from point A to B to C and back again.
 

Sonny Bos

Firebreather
Mar 22, 2013
210
48
265
32
Amsterdam
#10
im the kind of player that naturally sucks at all forms of rush games (i should not play starcraft multiplayer cause im always the slowest noob on the block) i too prefer to make a nice spacius dungeon and propperly train my creatures.. instead im rushing like hell.. made it to kenos lvl in les then 48 hours and now the first lvl where i have a bit of space and no rushing (at least if you are not bothered by the progress kira is making) and this one keeps crashing and lagging out.. so for us casual dungeonneers less rush, more space.. if there is more space units will also take longer to get from point a to point b

maybe when you start a new campaign have the option availble from dk one.. fortified walls can or cannot be penetrated by enemy.. its somewhat small but at least it offers another tactic aside from rushing <- (this would require a expansive type of bomb to bust open?)
 
Last edited:
Apr 4, 2015
18
2
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#11
The mission with the attacks down the 3 paths was a bit silly, didnt get time to really get a good defence down and just ended up picking up all my minions and dropping them at each lane as the enemy moved down. Killed all the enemys and then repeat, little boring tbh. Each wave came in fast, so i didnt even bother with traps in the end, just moving my drop army from point A to B to C and back again.
For that map I used digging/dirt placement to create a single path to funnel all enemies into and trapped the hell out of it. I did not even use any of my troops to ward off the attacks for that one. It gave me time to explore and build at my leisure.
 

Webby

Gnarling
Apr 6, 2015
7
7
40
40
Wales
#12
For that map I used digging/dirt placement to create a single path to funnel all enemies into and trapped the hell out of it. I did not even use any of my troops to ward off the attacks for that one. It gave me time to explore and build at my leisure.
Think you may have been playing a different mission then, i didnt have that ability by that point in the campaign. Were you perhaps playing skirmish?
 

Erke

Oculus
Apr 4, 2015
28
10
115
#13
First of all, I think you guys did an excellent jobs (release hick-ups aside) at re-creating the old Dungeon Keeper II feeling.
One thing that bothers me a bit though, is the rushy nature of the gameplay. You rarely have any time to build your dungeon, achievements practically encourage you to speed-run the game (and personally I hate speed-runs in any sort of game, but as an achievement whore I will get them all in this game nonetheless ;-)) and so does the AI.
I've played 2 Skirmishes on the highest difficulty so far, first time I was trying to build my dungeon, but I had hardly built the basics, when the opponent's Imps started digging into my dungeon and from that point on it was constant fighting, until I just used the rally banners and (easily) overran the enemy's dungeon heart. Second Skirmish I wasn't even trying much build-up anymore, just built the basics (lair, beast pen, hatchery, training-room, library, forge) and then started moving towards the enemy, building a few more things on the way (crypt, tavern, prison), but none of those came even close to being used as I then again easily overran his dungeon heart (Master difficulty again).

So yeah.....
You know what? I was just about to open a thread called "Slow Pace & Huge Maps", then I saw yours... So yeah, I totally agree with you.

One of my favorite things in the past, was the time that I could spend on my dungeon, before I engage to or encounter an enemy. And even though you're suppose to be evil, you had this slight fear when exploring, thinking; "Darn, should I extend my room, towards that way? What if it wide opens! I don't feel ready yet!"

You say you're no developer, but this isn't totally a developing issue, it's more like a creative team's job and storytelling. One thing comes to my mind is if we make the maps bigger, maybe there will be more time and opportunity to joyfully utilize all of the rooms.

Also as ShadowDragon8685 said, slowing the gamespeed or at least having an option for that, might also help but that also applies to the creatures level ups & productivity...

What I would really like to see is, having GIGANTIC, ENORMOUS, HUGE maps where you can spend, not only days but weeks to build and polish (just like the devs dreamed while coding for this game =P ) and once you encounter the enemy there would be huge epic battles and enough supplies to recover & keep rolling as long as you want...
 
Apr 4, 2015
18
2
40
#14
Think you may have been playing a different mission then, i didnt have that ability by that point in the campaign. Were you perhaps playing skirmish?
I'm referring to mission 7 in the campaign. The enemies come from 3 separate spawn points and take the shortest rout to your dungeon. Just design it so that the shortest rout for each one becomes the same rout and then trap that rout. Being able to "direct" the movements of the enemy if half the strategy of dungeon defense.
 

Webby

Gnarling
Apr 6, 2015
7
7
40
40
Wales
#15
I'm referring to mission 7 in the campaign. The enemies come from 3 separate spawn points and take the shortest rout to your dungeon. Just design it so that the shortest rout for each one becomes the same rout and then trap that rout. Being able to "direct" the movements of the enemy if half the strategy of dungeon defense.
Ahh, no im talking about the very early mission against that fop of a lord that just sends all his troops against you.
 

Kyle.PT

Blood Imp
Apr 12, 2015
3
0
10
32
#16
I agree with the pacing issues. Admittedly I'm only on C5 (first save/load issues, now level won't finish!), but already I feel rushed to complete each level rather than having time to develop my dungeon, explore and build up some connection with your minions. They all feel so expendable because there's always so much going on that you can't focus your attention on a task at a time.

Levels in DK2 that stick out for me are the ones where you're forced to tactically peg the enemy back, weathering small advances while training your creatures and 'creeping' into their territory. Levels that required you to be 'fast' were explicit in that regard, the one where you had to stop the prince advancing up the river before he made it to the portal is an example.
 

Kriiden

Dwarven Worker
Apr 13, 2015
1
0
20
27
#17
Created an account so I could reply to this thread: Yes. Pacing. Or make the dungeon walls stronger. On any normal map, the enemy is in my dungeon within minutes. I want to research. Build and create a fun dungeon, and enjoy some time while I'm building it.
 

Robert Crahmer

Spirit
WFTO Backer
Jan 16, 2013
1
0
120
#18
I've played to level 7 last night and also have the feeling that the game has some slight balancing and pacing issues, there may be traps and all, but I've found myself just rallying all troops from gateway to gateway to kill off the AI as fast as possible and advance to the next map. It would be more enjoyable if there were more maps that allowed to build a nice (symmetrical ;) dungeon, train your creatures and let hell break loose if you're ready to do so. At the moment it feels a little bit too linear and aggressive though it's fun to unlock the new features with each mission. I understand that the maps in the current campaign are ment to play like this but the game would benefit greatly from a bigger variety.
 
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