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Gameplay Issues regarding WFTO (Huge Mofo List)

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by SilentReaper, Apr 19, 2017.

  1. SilentReaper
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    SilentReaper Dwarven Worker

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    Hey developers, I have some issues regarding WFTO about gameplay mechanics.


    Sanctuary Issues
    1) Only cultists can work in the sanctuary.
    Are necromancers and witch doctors not intelligent enough about death to help perform rituals?

    2) Sacrificing is limited to only creating vampires.
    There could be hundreds of other options for sacrifices.
    Ex: Speeding up ritual progresses, Providing Mana or Creating Units other units

    3) Rituals are very weak for their investment.
    When I think rituals, I think some big preparation for some OP spell.
    Summoning Titans should be part of rituals (that require praying), not stand alone spells that are at your dungeon heart.
    Examples of "big" spells can be Armageddon from DK1 which would summon ALL units, even neutral creatures from the entire map to your dungeon heart to battle.
    Other ideas: Convert enemy creatures, steal gold, cause unhappiness in enemy creatures, spawn "hero" portals near enemy bases.

    Constructs
    1) Constructs as a design is very...plain and the amount of possible choices is very limited.
    It would seem more reasonable to move all existing construct to sections in spells, potions, and defense.
    The gold vortex is essentially useless since you can create a vault beside a gold mine.

    Defense
    1) We are given 3 different options for defensive buildings, Cannons, Gargoyles, Wells.
    Having different options is great, but they all essentially do the same thing that instead just makes choosing confusing and doesn't add much gameplay value.

    Potions
    Potions for the most part are great, however there are some really common potions missing.
    AoE heal for battles and Mana Generation (to cast spells).
    The Enrage spell should be a potion (maybe even AoE) considering how powerful the effects are.
    Wisdom juice doesn't provide enough XP
    Potions should have a White Outline if they can only be cast on top of your territory. (Same applies for spells)


    Rooms (General)
    1) Crypt doesn't have toggle ability for necromancers to create ghouls which conflicts with the ritual spell Uprising which creates wraiths.
    2) Unlike Dungeon Keeper, none of the rooms have any intractable "walls" which can be used, which is unfortunate considering how some rooms such as the Torture Chamber, Alchemy Lab, and Training Room are always at full capacity. Ex: If a 3x1 tile is covered against a wall, a usable prop on the wall for the Alchemy Lab can store an extra potion.
    3) Spirit Chamber can only provide XP from 1 unit to 1 unit. Since the entire point of the Spirit Chamber is to power level minions with disregard to gold (hello Vampire)...it would seem logically for say 4 Witch Doctors to transfer experience to 1 vampire.
    4) Foundry Boxes are not noticeable. It would be nice for the boxes to be more visible. Such as floating on top of the room. Additionally a number icon showing how many boxes you have available would be helpful.
    5) The Alchemy Room should have cauldrons change color to match the potions they created.
    6) Potions created in the alchemy room are generally too expensive.
    7) Garrison protection from multiple rooms that overlap should create larger zones rather than seeing multiple yellow circles
    8) When torturing enemy minions it would be helpful that they sometimes provide vision of the enemy base as extraction information.
    9) Beasts and everything regarding how they work seems like a terrible concept....maybe it's just me.

    Gameplay (General)
    1) AI needs more work
    2) The rally ability for minions causes them to move to a location and then fighting rather than doing an "attack move"
    3) The Tavern doesn't add any gameplay value.
    4) When there is combat it would be helpful to have a combat page that shows fighting units similar to what there was for DK1. This is EXTREMELY useful for cast spells in a big battle.

    5) Too much Gold.
    When I started playing this game both the campaign and the skirmish maps provided wayyyyy too much gold to do things and since the amount of creatures you can attract is equal to the room size, more often than not there is not enough space to attract all the creatures you want.
    For example if I make a 5x5 room which can occupy 4 slots such as an alchemy room, I'm expecting 4 crackpots to be lured to my dungeon (considering witch doctors or cultists cant make potions, but I do want this) but instead I only get 2.
    6) Creature Stats / Posession
    When taking possession of a creature or when using the "?" icon on a creature we don't get much information about the creature such as how much damage it can do with it's abilities. This also makes it difficult for combat.
    7) Turtling is too easy
    Using Garrison and unlimited gold options makes it to easy to turtle inside a base and get your army super strong, very safely.


    Final Comments:
    -While this game is the best successor to Dungeon Keeper there are some issues with it.
    Personally I find that the entire "beast concept" was poorly thought and is not cohesive with the entire game.
    -A lot of creatures are limited to what functions they can do
    -AI and UI needs more work
    -Certain rooms need their functions more refined with better ideas.
    Better room animations would be a nice bonus if there was the money for it.
     
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  2. SilentReaper
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    SilentReaper Dwarven Worker

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    To add
    The skill tree makes the entire building tier process extremely complicated, and in some ways limits gameplay.
    For example
    If I want to rush a 3x3 Lair, 3x3 Pig, 3x3 Sanctuary, 3x3 Spirit Chamber this allows me to have fast access to Vampires who I can power level.
    On the other hand I could build a 3x3 Lair, 3x3 Pig, 5x5 Training Room and get 5-6 Gnarlings to train.
    The only really alternate strategy beyond building Lairs is going for a Monster Den and trying to rush the opponent.


    Also
    Defense Buildings are WAY too strong in pvp scenarios.
    A lot of times you can rush a 3x3 or 3x5 Foundry and set up 3 cannons in a line, making you virtually immune to all invades.
     
  3. Böhser Onkel [AUT]
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    Böhser Onkel [AUT] Bafu

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    I'm no Developer but a QA Member and we talked internally about similar stuff, so I can answer some questions.
    1) can't give you a real answer on that, I guess just a design choice
    2) I heard rumor that that will be changed

    3)
    - Summon Titan via Ritual -> Would make the Sanctuary essentiell, that's the reason why not
    - Big Spell, can't give you muchin that, but the spell you descripe is way too OP, and the game should be balanced around Multiplayer.

    Constructs were introduced, to make the foundry not essentiell (because they were defences in the Alpha or Bedrock Beta).
    Constructs limit in use... I don't agree. If you think creativly you can use them very versatile.
    ie.:
    Underminer to push enemies from the bridge into lava, has to be timed right.
    Outposts to get near a room of your enemy to quickly drop your army or workers.
    Wardin Totem in a Corridor, to force your enemy to push.
    Wardin titem near the exit, to make enemy workers unable to bring his fallen units back.
    Replacement Earth can do the same.
    Gold Vortex on all 4 sides of the gold shrine to maximize the Gold Income fromt he shrine

    And I agree with the Gold Vortex beeing more or less useless :p

    Bombards = dmg
    Gargoyles = Debuff + dmg
    Well of Souls = Summoning Wraith + dmg

    I use Bombards, Gargoyles and WoS differently. Bombard just for Firepower.
    Gargolye, if I can controll the area, which is under attack (because they are damn strong).
    WoS, more or less just to keep enemy workers way from my walls or keep Minions bussy who want to attack my Doors.

    It's your choice how to use them.

    That got changed because it provided too much XP.
    Because you don't just brew 1 you span brew them, and then quickly some lvl10 minions at 7min.
    It's an alternative way to train, if it would provide more mana it would outrace the other options by far, now it's fairly good balanced.

    I used a lvl1Crackpot with 0 XP
    Train in a 5x5 Barracks = stop time when reached lvl 3
    Train in a Reenforced 5x5 Barracks = stop time when reached lvl 3
    Train inside the Arena with Tanks (Chunders or BeastMaster, can't remember) = stop time when reached lvl 3
    Train with bewing Wisdome Juce = stop time when reached lvl 3 and watch the ammount of Gold which got drained
    Train in the Spirit Chamber = stop time when reached lvl 3 and watch the ammount of Gold which got drained
    I didn't lvled it up with a Spirit, because that doesn't make any sence

    1) The Crypt has an Toggle On and Off switch, looks like a pile of Skulls. That will stop your Necros from summoning Ghouls.
    2) Indeed, it would been nice to have that feature, sadly I don't know why they didn't implimented that. Either way, reenforced walls will give a 250% buff.
    3) The Spirit also has an option to drop Spirits onto a Minion to level up. (you can get spirits if you burn minions in the Torture Chamber). If the Witch Doctors could all work on 1 Unit, it would be unbalanced, and could cause more troubles then good.
    4) Personally I'm fine with Defence parts, but I agree, the Defence Parts aren't very visible. I can see the Number count to be quite usefull, so I also do not disagree with you there, even though I personally have no problem with the current thing.
    5) That would be awesome! Great Suggestion
    6) I would like ot hear why you think why they are too prizy.
    7) Do not dislike.
    8) That was an suggestion I have seen 1 or 2 times before. I think that is an balance desiction.
    9) Would like to hear why you think why you think so.

    They will get an overhaul in the next patch :D

    Design Decition.

    Agreed.
    Max you get is getting gold back and if you have an Overworld gateway you get 1 Bard.

    There is, and you can also cast spell on them through it
    [​IMG]

    I can only give you my personal option, because that's heavily based on how you play.
    I personally burn my gold almost instantly, so for me their is never enought gold.
    I like that you don't get spammed with minions only if you want to be spammed with them, by building bigger rooms. Because you have the freedome to attract more minions if you want, and then decrease the size of your alchemy lab or sell the seperated one.

    https://forum.brightrockgames.com/threads/units-stats.9956/

    Perhaps Slich and Me are responsible for that. Both of us are very aggresive players and if you play on a certain skill level, there were no option to turltle for real. And for me it now feels good, still I can easily breach a Dungeon and overrun it.
    Turtling seems to be very effective in a casual match or against newer players, but there are many option to get in and breach walls.
    So I have to tell you, that's good how it is, because now you have an chance to actually turtle.

    Won't say anything about that, because it's a more personally preference but I agree with you on some points.

    What you said, that is a decent strategy, but I can tell you, there gives alternative ones and better ones as well.

    Indeed Defences are strong and it's good to that they are very strong at the beginning, because they should somewhat counter a rush.

    I play lot PvP, I can tell you, to have a chance to trutle was needed, and it's good that a slothplayer has somewhat of a chance against a wrath player.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  4. SilentReaper
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    SilentReaper Dwarven Worker

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    3)
    - Summon Titan via Ritual -> Would make the Sanctuary essentially, that's the reason why not
    - Big Spell, can't give you muchin that, but the spell you descripe is way too OP, and the game should be balanced around Multiplayer.


    The entire purpose of a Sanctuary is to provide end-tier spells which can change games, which is exactly what a Titan does.
    Rituals as a design are suppose to be "OP", given that you can pay their ridiculous investment. (Otherwise there is no point since they should just be moved to the "spells" category or "constructs" or "potions".



    Constructs limit in use... I don't agree. If you think creativly you can use them very versatile.

    I don't think they are limited, I'm saying the number of options available are limited. E.g. There are so few constructs available that it would simply make it easier for newer players if there was 1 less category in the game.



    I didn't lvled it up with a Spirit, because that doesn't make any sence

    If a spirit chamber is far less efficient than training with a barracks, then why does it even exist then?
    The entire point of my argument is that by having research requirements for every building you are severely limiting the build path of how players can fight each other.
    I DO want to see some players rushing Spirit Chamber or Sanctuaries or Alchemy Lab.
    It diversifies strategies and makes the game less predictable and more fun over all.


    1) The Crypt has an Toggle On and Off switch, looks like a pile of Skulls. That will stop your Necros from summoning Ghouls.
    2) Indeed, it would been nice to have that feature, sadly I don't know why they didn't implimented that. Either way, reenforced walls will give a 250% buff.
    3) The Spirit also has an option to drop Spirits onto a Minion to level up. (you can get spirits if you burn minions in the Torture Chamber). If the Witch Doctors could all work on 1 Unit, it would be unbalanced, and could cause more troubles then good.
    4) Personally I'm fine with Defence parts, but I agree, the Defence Parts aren't very visible. I can see the Number count to be quite usefull, so I also do not disagree with you there, even though I personally have no problem with the current thing.
    5) That would be awesome! Great Suggestion
    6) I would like ot hear why you think why they are too prizy.
    7) Do not dislike.
    8) That was an suggestion I have seen 1 or 2 times before. I think that is an balance desiction.
    9) Would like to hear why you think why you think so.


    1) Thanks I couldn't find it! (Maybe something worth changing to be more visible?)
    2) Does this mean a 3x3 room with only 1 opening will be more efficient than a 3x3 room with 2 openings?
    3) You have a good point, I guess I just wish a more diversified game.
    4) Lets get that QoL patch going?
    5) Also with that, some occasional room animations for Alchemy, Training Room and Spirit Chamber would be nice.
    6) My logic behind it is that a 3x3 Barracks costs 300x9=2700 Gold
    A potion costing near the same price feels a bit pricey considering the temporary effects. (Maybe it's just me)
    7) Do not dislike?

    9) They have their own built in lair and creature portal and they don't require training. If the game wanted people to have access to more creatures faster, why not just increase the spawn rate? (or create larger rooms) Additionally, the only benefit I saw in Arena in DK2 was that they would train faster at the expense of losing health while fighting. Here, the downside is marginal because you get more creatures faster (and the arena research isn't difficult to get).


    Agreed.
    Max you get is getting gold back and if you have an Overworld gateway you get 1 Bard.

    A neat idea is that the Taverns can give above-the-limit happiness to minions. E.g. Minions will be 130% Happy instead of 100% happy.
    The work efficiency of your creatures is equal to happiness.
    A creature at 50% happiness will work half the speed of a 100% happiness creature.
    However creatures will never fight below 100% efficiency during a battle (they don't want to die)


    There is, and you can also cast spell on them through it
    It's not good enough, in DK1 you could see the health bar of each unit and which units were fighting who. It made it really easy to heal low health units and use lightning bolts to finish off low health enemies.



    What you said, that is a decent strategy, but I can tell you, there gives alternative ones and better ones as well.
    It never hurt a game to have multiple valid strategies.


    One other thing I'd like to add
    Please add a white-outline to spells and potions than can be used on your territory only. It would be extremely helpful to know which stuff I can cast on earth or enemy terrain.



    Any chance in the future for DLC skins such as
    Custom Dungeon Hearts (like the Cube from the Campaign)?

    Lastly, any chance on having the wiki WFTO page being updated? There is so much missing information...
     
  5. Nutter
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    Nutter Inquisitor Founder

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    I've been watching this thread a while, without replying since a lot of it is personal opinion and I don't like disagreeing with opinions... but where you're now suggesting that things are designed in a certain way (when they weren't). That's a different matter, so i'm going to reply now to clear up some of the misunderstandings here.

    • The Sanctuary is designed to have global, map wide effects (ones which affect all players directly or cause some other large effect such as revealing a large part of the map). It is not designed to have "game ending" effects.
    • Titans were once going to be summoned via a ritual, but that was changed very early on because it upset the balance of the game.

    • Constructs work differently to Defenses (they can be channeled by workers, anywhere on the map and don't require defense parts to build) so are separated to make it clear they have a different set of rules to them. There will also likely be some more to be added in the next expansion meaning that not having to fit them all into a single tab is definitely better.
    • Wall Props aren't in the game because they were cheap and unbalanced, a 3x1 area gave you 1 prop without having a proper "room" and since the number of units you attract is directly linked to have many props you have. Allowing people to attract extra minions just by building a 3x1 area of tiles would unbalance everything.
    • Beasts do require training, and in fact gain levels more quickly than normal (intelligent) units, the different is that they cannot use the Barrack and MUST use the Arena to train and get stronger. They also die immediately without getting KO'd and do not require any form of payday payment. They are definitely different from normal units.
    • Taverns already do allow a minion's happiness to go over 100% and allow them to stay happier for longer afterwards improving their efficiency.
    • The "Battle Window" you are requesting is partially moved across to the warbands system new to WFTO, once you have a warband you can see every single minion it within the warband tab (by expanding it to full size) and see their health to directly cast spells on them, etc.

    With those out of the way, there are a few other things to address:

    You can usually tell whether or not a spell must be cast on your territory or not by reading it's deescription. But a slight change to the icons itself seems like a good way to make it clearer.

    The custom dungeon cores (they're not called hearts) are already in there. The "cube from campaign" is Mira's Theme and can be unlocked by completing an achievement, along with various other Dungeon Themes to be unlocked. Check the Unlockables screen on the extras menu.
     
  6. Böhser Onkel [AUT]
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    Sorry was an missunderstanding from my side then.
    I can only repeat that: "Constructs were introduced, to make the foundry not essentiell (because they were defences in the Alpha or Bedrock Beta)."
    I personally like to have another catigory, because they aren't defences as such

    The Spirit Chamber is the fastes way to level up, but also the most costly one.
    If you are flooded with Gold, thats a good way how to burn it.

    Btw, I rush for the Alchemy Lab, because Potions are awesome :D

    Totally agree. Now there are only 3 good strategies, which just depends on the size of the map (and rarly the design of the map)


    1 Prop can get 6 supportive walls, more then that is just waste.
    If you have all 6 Walls support that 1 Prop, you will a 250% boost for this prop.
    That means 1 supportive wall gives +~40%


    I do not dislike the idea of the Garrison creating a larger zones rather than seeing multiple yellow circles.


    Still not sold on that^^

    That's the Mira Theme, it's an unlockable Theme.
    You have to do all "hidden" achievements in the main Campaign

    There's no real Wiki right now, but most informationes are covered by Fireeyes Guides and my Threats:
    The Grimoire of Minions
    The Grimoire of Magic
    The Grimoire of Structures
    Spawn Rules
    Unit Stats
    Level Up Stats
    For Lore you have the Dungeneer Guide


    Small forum tipp, if you click on "Replay", you can quote a person. Took me a while as well to figure out how that works.
    And I just figured out, if you mark a text of which you want to replay, you can hoover over it and select it D:

    That's new to me :D
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
  7. SilentReaper
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    SilentReaper Dwarven Worker

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    Hey guys!
    Thanks so much for replying, it is very courteous of you (especially if the same question was asked +20 times in the past)


    I'm assuming it made aggro strategies too strong?


    I understand there are unlockables, I'm just wondering whether some of them will be DLC in the future? It seems like a cheap and easy way to create some profit for the company/game.


    I took a look at it (it took some time to find it) and I find the health bars and buttons small. Is it intentionally that small?
    To add, When my cursor goes over the UI for spells, buildings, selling, warbands, I sometimes I have trouble clicking them. Would it be possible in the future to have a button to increase the button sizes by say, 50% more, while leaving the hud the same size?

    It might have to do with simply the number of win-conditions you can use
    Right now the most basic strategies rely on Minions, Cannons, Titan or some variation between.
    One of the main reasons why I wanted Rituals boosted in power is so that it can give another form of win condition.

    I would like to support this opinion with some points
    • It provides a deeper level of game play where players have more "choices available" to win
    • Rituals provide "openings" where enemy players can exploit their lack of resources.
    • Sanctuaries will feel more worthwhile considering how expensive they are and the amount of time they need

    I've been looking as some tournament games for WFTO (Baium1 on youtube) and it seems like the wall prop bonus don't seem efficient enough. Am I missing something here?

    Some other things regarding WFTO
    When the game starts having a 3,2,1, count down timer would be nice for competitive players.
    The map editor provides no form of "triggers" to create custom events within a game.
    I cannot change the player number in editor after I have created the map.
    When creating a skirmish game offline or online there is no option to "spectate" a game. (Useful for seeing how bots play on a custom map)
    When using the torture chamber it will always automatically corrupt minions. If I kill a minion, it will revert back to corrupt mode.
    When seeing Fog of War terrain it is too dark and difficult to identify blocks (skirmish).
    The defense (sloth?) skill tree feels REALLY limited considering 3 of the research options available are Doors (4 if you count Blade Lotus as a Door). Some ideas for more unique research options for defense could be Garrison giving Defense Structures a defense boost or the Heal Spell on your own territory is stronger.
    Workers will sometimes prioritize fortifying walls over claiming tiles.

    Edit:
    The main reason I don't like beasts is because they don't require gold, they have their own spawn rate and they heavily benefit aggro strategies.
     
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  8. Böhser Onkel [AUT]
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    That Tournament was in Patch 1.4 or 1.5, the Walls gave a +50% efficency boost, in 1.6 it changed to +150%.
    And it feels that the research speed got lowered or it's because that training requres more time, so that it feels slower, either way reenforcing walls is now needed to boost the efficency, especially with the faster reenforcing time it's definatly worth doing.
    (btw, the wall efficency is a reason why I place my Archive right next to my Core)

    Agree. Right now the AI starts 3-1 second before every other player. Host starts about 1 second earlier as client.
    That's somezhing they want to do, let's hope that works
    I think you can increase the number, when you import the map. But dunno if it is also working if you decrease the number?
    Hopefully the spectator mode gets fixed, and if they fixed it, I made an improvement Ticket to add a faction for spectators.
    Change the Gamma Settings in your game. Options -> Graphics -> Gamma & Brightness
    Garrison allready give defences a Life Regen and attacking buff.
    I personally feel, sloth tree sucks, because it isn't competetive, and it will stay that way.

    Indeed Rituals aren't necesserey to win a fight, it depends on how you want to look at it, if it's a good thing or not.
    The thing about Rituals is,
    Avarice ins essentiell, that's why you allmost chain channel it.
    With Overload you can't go wrong, because it's the most flexible Ritual.
    Then we have Vampires, which summons one of the strongest Unit ingame.
    Apocalpse, a simple an easy solution for core walling.

    The rest is very situational, but if you have to prepare them and use them at the right time.
    Uprising, very powerfull, and can save your ass, but requres a lot of prepareation.
    Assembly, either you build sentinels with it, or you spawn defences out of nowwhere in about 30sec.
    Revelation, good if your opponent has a big Dungeon, and spy for a long time on him.
    Fortify is really nice, if you have a large dungeon with many corridors, then you are almost immun against a minion push, even if you opponent uses haste.
    The Wall mining Ritual, only needed, if you need to breach the walls, but you are unable to place Underminers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2017
  9. SilentReaper
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    SilentReaper Dwarven Worker

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    Why is the sloth tree remaining non-competitive...?
     
  10. Böhser Onkel [AUT]
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    Böhser Onkel [AUT] Bafu

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    No option for training, to option for expanding, and what I got told, it will stay that way because it doesn't fit the design.
     
  11. Nutter
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    Nutter Inquisitor Founder

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    Because the design was never to make 2 competitive trees. The design was to put tools for offensive/aggressive play in Wrath, and Defensive play in Sloth, with the intention/expectation that players would use a combination of the two in creating a competitive strategy.

    As we all know though, Wrath has enough tools to be competitive on it's own, whilst Sloth doesn't.

    Whether or not it will stay non-competitive isn't set in stone, but the lead designer is determined not to make changes to the current/existing layout of the veins of evil. So they only way Sloth will become more competitive is with new additions to make it so.
     
  12. SilentReaper
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    SilentReaper Dwarven Worker

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    If Sloth over-all is weak, why not simply buff the spells, potions, defense, rooms of the Sloth tree (if the layout cannot be changed?)

    How come there is a fortify wall ritual but not fortify wall spell? (just curious)

    In the final level of pet dungeon I realized you can pick up empire units (spawn box) and drop them on enemy dungeons to kill them and complete the challenge (Kind of hilarious though). Bug intended?

    Why is the prison room available 2 levels before the torture & crypt room?
    The torture and Crypt rooms on their own can be useful but a prison can only be useful if you can use captured enemy minions but the only thing available at that same tier is blood money which considering how powerful the effects are, would warrant a more late game spell.
     
  13. Nutter
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    Nutter Inquisitor Founder

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    Sloth isn't "weak" it just fulfills a role which goes against the general playstyle of a competitive MP environment. Sloth is about holding a position and fortifying it, which whilst useful... doesn't actually get you the win since eventually you will have to breach your enemy's dungeon and kill their core. And if your goal is to do that, the Wrath tree is much more effective for doing so.

    Having a ritual and a spell do exactly the same thing would be bad from a design point of view because you'd be taking up 2 slots on the veins of evil for effectively the same mechanic. Although I can definitely see the appeal of such a spell, it was probably a case of one or the other and the ritual is more interesting/useful than having to do it manually 1 tile at a time.

    The dropping empire minions on enemy dungeons thing sounds like a bug to me.

    I thought the prison was just one tier above the torture chamber? Either way, since Prisoners don't even die within a prison (they feed on rats instead) you can build your prison early and keep them prisoners in there until you have the room you need to "use" them.
     

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