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[Gameplay/Mechanics] Traps

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maties7

Spirit
WFTO Backer
Dec 22, 2012
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#1
Before reading this theme I'm warn you that my grammatic sucks...

Actually all knows traps will be in game, but I can't find any information about game mechanics related with traps. Even I don't knows what traps will be in game. But I have suggestion how can traps works. Firstly I prefer traps mechanics from DK2 and I have hopes the WTFO will use similar system but isn't ideal and need some improvements.

Pre-order
I never realized why first I always need set blueprints before build traps. I think we need a system allowing pre-order, which allow us to build traps and store them without making any blueprints . This would allow faster setting traps or faster re-build the destroyed traps.

Buy/Sell
Buying and selling in DK2 have a lot of issues. When you want set trap, you must always pay, even if you have chest in workshop. From selling blueprints you got only half-price but why? Why you got only half-price, when even don't started building a trap. This is illogical. I want pay for real trap, not for only blueprints. I think that when set trap, first game should check is any chest in workshop. If existed, then you don't pay, but if don't exist, then new order is added to workshop and you pay. When you sell blueprints, then game try delete order and if was deleted, then you get full price, if trap exist, then you don't get any money but chest will be stored in workshop.

Pick up and drop
Allow pick up and drop chest with trap/door. Dropping chest on property blueprints will set up traps.

Weakness
I don't like idea of traps using mana, because this affect on spells. I prefer separate limitations for spells and traps. Example traps can have limiter uses and after deployed in workshop automatically start build ammo, which allow activate traps again. Ammo will be cheaper and build faster than original trap.
 

Mozared

Juggernaut
WFTO Founder
Feb 17, 2013
1,132
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#2
Buy/Sell
Buying and selling in DK2 have a lot of issues. When you want set trap, you must always pay, even if you have chest in workshop. From selling blueprints you got only half-price but why? Why you got only half-price, when even don't started building a trap. This is illogical. I want pay for real trap, not for only blueprints. I think that when set trap, first game should check is any chest in workshop. If existed, then you don't pay, but if don't exist, then new order is added to workshop and you pay. When you sell blueprints, then game try delete order and if was deleted, then you get full price, if trap exist, then you don't get any money but chest will be stored in workshop.

[...]

Weakness
I don't like idea of traps using mana, because this affect on spells. I prefer separate limitations for spells and traps. Example traps can have limiter uses and after deployed in workshop automatically start build ammo, which allow activate traps again. Ammo will be cheaper and build faster than original trap.
I like some of your line of thinking. I think it's pretty much completely confirmed already that traps in WFTO will use mana, but I've never liked this system myself either. In DK2 it was seemingly meant as a check to keep a player from setting up a huge trapline and become unkillable, but no traps really cost enough mana for the player to ever feel the impact. I haven't ever felt it anyway, and I'm a fairly avid trap user. I really wouldn't mind if the power of traps was limited only by their cooldowns and nothing else.

Additionally, I've never really liked the gold cost either. It didn't feel like it really enhanced the balance of the game to me, as my trap usage was always kept in check more by fabrication delays than gold cost. It could be a needless mechanic as well.

All in all, maybe Simburgur can shed some light on this; what exactly is the thought behind traps using mana, and will they still cost gold in WFTO? I'd like to see a convincing argument as to why we should keep those mechanics.
 

Enjou

Ember Demon
WFTO Backer
Jan 10, 2012
1,315
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#4
Pre-order
I never realized why first I always need set blueprints before build traps. I think we need a system allowing pre-order, which allow us to build traps and store them without making any blueprints . This would allow faster setting traps or faster re-build the destroyed traps.
This has significant potential for abuse and could be unbalanced. When traps are made on demand rather than stored ahead of time, you need to think about placement very carefully and plan ahead. If you can make your traps ahead of time, you will just make a big stockpile and deploy them ahead of an incoming enemy wave - it could give the defender too much of an advantage.

Buy/Sell
Buying and selling in DK2 have a lot of issues. When you want set trap, you must always pay, even if you have chest in workshop. From selling blueprints you got only half-price but why? Why you got only half-price, when even don't started building a trap. This is illogical. I want pay for real trap, not for only blueprints. I think that when set trap, first game should check is any chest in workshop. If existed, then you don't pay, but if don't exist, then new order is added to workshop and you pay. When you sell blueprints, then game try delete order and if was deleted, then you get full price, if trap exist, then you don't get any money but chest will be stored in workshop.
I agree that selling blueprints shouldn't penalize you. I'm thinking that if a trap is completed before delivery to its spot, it should go to an equivalent blueprint. If no blueprints exist, it should be taken back to the foundry for 'recycling' and be disposed of. (to prevent the exploit described above)

Pick up and drop
Allow pick up and drop chest with trap/door. Dropping chest on property blueprints will set up traps.
I would prefer this to continue to be imp work. Similar to above game balance would require that traps need to be something set up in advance of enemy incursions, and if you can drop the chests in yourself you'd be speeding up the process.

Weakness
I don't like idea of traps using mana, because this affect on spells. I prefer separate limitations for spells and traps. Example traps can have limiter uses and after deployed in workshop automatically start build ammo, which allow activate traps again. Ammo will be cheaper and build faster than original trap.
Some defenses will require mana, like the Ember Rifts, but this is more of a drain on your gain rate than something that costs mana every time it goes off. I'm thinking some other defenses should have this requirement, while others may have limited uses or have some other drawback. Some may not need any drawback - for instance a spike trap I could imagine just working based on mechanics and pressure plates, not needing anything like ammo or mana to run.
 
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Lord of Riva

The Lord
WFTO Founder
Dec 29, 2012
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#5
hmmm, will put it into the Mechanics section, even so this is a quite General discussion about "Devices" (thats how the Devs called the Traps)
 

Underlord Vulukai

Witch Doctor
WFTO Backer
Mar 11, 2013
666
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The Void
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#6
hmmm, will put it into the Mechanics section, even so this is a quite General discussion about "Devices" (thats how the Devs called the Traps)
well remember, not everything is an actual "trap"

ember rifts are more of a summoning circle for Ember Demons, and there is the Wall Tunneler that has been mentioned several times in sloth that allows access through fortified enemy walls. neither is really a set up for luring an enemy in to be killed. Some things in DK2 didn't really fit the definition of "trap" either, so device works well to me.
 

Hahalo

Gnarling
Apr 16, 2013
20
5
50
34
#7
Just to add a point, I hope traps are really deadly and realistic.

Something like only trigger once, and it's fatal if you get hit.

I personally don't like traps that doesn't matter if your creature is high level to tank the damage.

It makes the game play more challenging especially and there are consequence when assaulting an opponent dungeon.

It got to be like "Oh shit, what just happened", instead of "Meh, another useless trap"
 

Mozared

Juggernaut
WFTO Founder
Feb 17, 2013
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#8
Just to add a point, I hope traps are really deadly and realistic.

Something like only trigger once, and it's fatal if you get hit.

I personally don't like traps that doesn't matter if your creature is high level to tank the damage.

It makes the game play more challenging especially and there are consequence when assaulting an opponent dungeon.

It got to be like "Oh shit, what just happened", instead of "Meh, another useless trap"
You need to keep the flipside of this in mind, though. By making all traps really strong, defending becomes incredibly overpowered. Remember those doors in boulder traps behind them in DK 1? Bye bye level 10 Horned Reaper. The issue here was that the Magic Doors you needed to break through to get into the hallway had over 9000 HP. This meant that if you wanted to break through one without the risk of losing units you'd simply have to stay there and watch your minion hit the door for five minutes. Not fun in any way.
 

Hahalo

Gnarling
Apr 16, 2013
20
5
50
34
#9
Hmm yeah understand your point.

I'm actually thinking about the issue when you have a bunch of lvl7-10 creatures and rampaging thru an opponent castles and there is nothing in between to fight it beside a few well place bolder.
 

Nutter

Frost Weaver
WFTO Founder
Jan 19, 2013
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Huddersfield, UK
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#10
We could have the incredibly powerful traps which are single use and lethal, which is mostly going to be a sloth vein thing, Then counteract it with a wrath unlock creature (some kind of rogue/thief) who can disable them with one of his abilities. Personally I quite like the idea of a stealthy rogue who can use his skills to pick locks on doors, do stuff like poison the micropiglets or steal treasure and ultimately could disable traps. He'd be a perfect saboteur and probably a good addition to the wrath vein working as a sort of "anti-sloth" counter
 

Tommonius

Necromancer
WFTO Backer
Dec 15, 2012
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Wolverhampton
#11
Threads merged

Okay So I am finally at the last level of DK2 and began comparing the game play to DK1 and namely the bits I liked about both games mechanic wise.

One thing that I feel was never done to my satisfaction was the mechanic behind doors and Traps and how they are manufactured.

In DK1 your minions built what ever you had less of and you could abuse the workshop to make stuff and sell off but would also leave the crates that represented the completed traps to clog up your workshop but at least your minions would manufacture a stockpile instead of waiting until you really need them and wishing they would hurry up.

DK2 did things somewhat better with you laying down the blueprints of where you wanted your doors and traps and you paid for them straight away thereby removing the selling items abuse, they were manufactured and then the imps took the crate and assembled the trap/door.

However if I felt time was of the essence I had to wait for my Trolls and Bile Demons to pick up the pace and build as quick as they could which sometimes was just not enough like say for example needing a secret door down having knocked down an enemy door and hiding from patrols.

What I would like in WTFO would be the ability to stockpile traps and doors in crates that you pay for so say you need emergency defense or doors to replace breeches in your dungeons you can do that, you laydown the blueprints and it is done much quicker because you have doors and Traps on hand and you can control say how many of one item/trap/door you want building that you can keep in reserve, perhaps 5 steel door crates and 8 lightning trap crates.

This is balanced somewhat by selling traps and doors at say half the price you paid to make them and them clogging up your workshop if you need other crates of things need building.

So what do you guys think? Was DK1 manufacturing mehcnaic better or DK2? Would you like my mechanic of traps and doors or would you like none of the above, if so tell me your thoughts on the matter.
 

Noontide

Designer / Community Manager
Brightrock Games
Dec 8, 2012
2,141
1,776
700
Brighton, UK
#14
All in all, maybe Simburgur can shed some light on this; what exactly is the thought behind traps using mana, and will they still cost gold in WFTO? I'd like to see a convincing argument as to why we should keep those mechanics.
I'm not Simburgur but I can shed some light. Not all defenses/devices will require a mana tithe, some such as the Ember rift require a constant flow of mana to maintain what they do and this is to balance the effect of the creature that spawns, this makes sense in a balance perspective and a lore perspective. Obviously the Ember Rift is not the only one that uses mana but I'd imagine purely corporeal stuff won't need the mana, it doesn't make much sense does it? ;)
 

maties7

Spirit
WFTO Backer
Dec 22, 2012
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#15
I agree that selling blueprints shouldn't penalize you. I'm thinking that if a trap is completed before delivery to its spot, it should go to an equivalent blueprint. If no blueprints exist, it should be taken back to the foundry for 'recycling' and be disposed of. (to prevent the exploit described above)
What does imp when he tries deliver chest to blueprint and you sold them and create another? Will chest 'recycle' or imp change delivery spot? It's little confusing and you changed only penalize from gold to time.

This has significant potential for abuse and could be unbalanced. When traps are made on demand rather than stored ahead of time, you need to think about placement very carefully and plan ahead. If you can make your traps ahead of time, you will just make a big stockpile and deploy them ahead of an incoming enemy wave - it could give the defender too much of an advantage.
Please remember pre-order ability is limited by space in workshop. When storage overflows, the player will be forced to place device/ sold chest/ enlarge workshop. And if you lose one's attention, enemy can take over workchop and your devices.
 
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Enjou

Ember Demon
WFTO Backer
Jan 10, 2012
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#16
What does imp when he tries deliver chest to blueprint and you sold them and create another? Will chest 'recycle' or imp change delivery spot? It's little confusing and you changed only penalize from gold to time.
As long as the chest still exists and there is a blueprint the imp would deliver it to the next location in the queue for that type of item. Recycling would happen at the foundry, so anything out for delivery is safe. Also, recycling wouldn't necessarily be instantaneous, so you might have a minute or two where the item sits and you can put down another blueprint.

Please remember pre-order ability is limited by space in workshop. When storage overflows, the player will be forced to place device/ sold chest/ enlarge workshop. And if you lose one's attention, enemy can take over workchop and your devices.
I suppose it depends on how much space there is. DK2 workshops had space for a lot of traps. If it's more than a very small amount, there's trouble. However, keep in mind that a small storage space would mean that you wouldn't have much space for making new items so storage could easily backfire.
 
Jan 3, 2013
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#17
If Imps will still have to deliver the physical part of the trap to a point ( tile where blueprint is on ) then this is how I think it will be fair :

1. Player should be allowed to cancel the trap building process at any time for no penalty.
2. If trap is made but blueprint isn't placed, the physical part ( crate ) could be sold for 75% of it's price.
3. Blueprint should be allowed to be moved/removed at any time for no penalty.
4. Installed trap could be sold for 50% of price, unless it's health is above 50%. If it is below, then price should be either 25% or based on current % of hp it has.

It's still unknown how players will build the trap but I hope it won't be exactly like in DK2, players should be able to deploy the pack of traps where they need ( Sloth will depend on this a lot ) and be able to order traps and doors without a need of the blueprint placement on the tile.
 
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