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Give walls some love

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Lulero, Apr 7, 2015.

  1. Lulero
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    Lulero Blood Imp

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    Hey there,

    From reading around I believe the team is aware of most of the existing issues and heading the right way. I already told my friends to keep an eye out for what could be a real gem in the making. But for now I've decided to stop playing until some much needed improvements.

    From the top of my list : Walls should impact the room mechanics positively. I've read parts of the so-whats-the-deal-with-even-sided-rooms thread, but the discussion is hard to follow with various aspects being discussed. To be clear, I didn't start this thread to talk about props, room size or interactions/synergies. I'm concerned about walls and the fact that, in the current build, you'd probably be better removing them for wider rooms.

    A suggestion among other possibilities :

    What if, for example, length of the longer connected wall would affect room efficiency?

    To be clear, for an entirely enclosed 3x3 room it would be 12. Dig an entrance, down to 11. Dig another entrance to the other side and you now have 2 disconnected walls of similar length : 5. That's a bit harsh, so let's say doors allow you to connect those walls and you are at 10 with one door (you still lose a bit as the door doesn't count for a wall).

    In the early game, doors might be luxury and you'd have to favor dead-ends to get the most out of your critical rooms. But if you somewhat limit the amount of "hubs" (room with more than 2 entries) you won't need that much doors. And stuff like vault might be perfect hubs as they wouldn't be affected. Four rooms in a row mean only one door in the middle to connect everything. In a more complex design you'd have to think a bit (and that's good). Not to mention breaches will have another effect that simply opening a path. Just picture heroes digging a wall into your library, doesn't it make sense that this room efficiency suddenly drops ? To avoid that you might want to use corridors a lot more. Good hubs, not affected as badly by breaches protecting the rooms that are. The more I think about it the more I want this stuff to happen.

    Thoughts ?

    TL;DR: Bold parts

    EDIT : Also alcoves (dented walls) would sacrifice space (props) for more efficiency and be another viable design with pros and cons.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2015
  2. Alfador
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    Alfador Disciple

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    I'm following up that Thread, and I was pretty much one of the guys and insisted a loooot on the Reinforced Walls around the Rooms.
    Dungeon Building is about building a Dungeon, and both Walls and doors play a part in this. As it is, Space is of the essence, and walls take way too much space for no discernible reason, so you're better off without them, mostly because they offer no advantages. This is quite sad, and it was an idea that the Prequels to our Spiritual Sequel had thought beforehand. WftO needs to have a feature that gives importance to Reinforced Walls again, it's a Dungeon Building requirement! :(

    I'm all up for Room Efficiency to depend on Reinforced Walls and that Doors also help connect those walls. Sounds like a great idea, and picks up one of the older mechanics I kinda miss. In my opinion, even Treasuries and Lairs should be affected by this efficiency. For example, creatures might complain, or take longer to rest; treasury holds less gold. I miss the creatures needs having more impact.

    I also love the use of corridors :)
    It's a nice trap laying nest and can make flank your enemy easier while he's in between these traps in a well laid-out dungeon. Of course, Reinforced Walls should also hold out the Underminer a lot better. As it is it's very easy to dodge traps and puncture through doors with it. In Multiplayer I would easily vote for a possible way to make Walls impenetrable, or at least have more customization (control the tech tree, the Creatures available, etc...).
    I'm also trying to see the advantage of the Garrison on the Walls, because I liked the idea of this building being used to protect them... I've tried the Underminer but it didn't do anything, it still blows up as always (they were my own Walls though).
     
  3. SlyGoat
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    SlyGoat Firebreather

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    I concur. I've taken to building all my rooms as giant open floor plans, but it still kills my OCD side to do so. The powergaming part of me that plays for efficiency overpowers the OCD part. Room efficiency would be fantastic.
     
  4. Valderis Vandala
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    Valderis Vandala Ghoul

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    I think the people complaining about walls and dungeon efficiency are forgetting a little problem with it.

    If walls where to give rooms higher efficiency to the creatures working there then this would get rid of the need to have food production. Because as it stands right now you already don't really need to build up any food production at all and you can still get everything done just fine, if walls where to boost you even more then the pigs and tavern will be completely obsolete.

    At least thats what I understand of it, not sure if I'm right about all this but thats my two cents.
     
  5. SlyGoat
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    SlyGoat Firebreather

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    Room efficiency is separate from creature efficiency. And the problem of minions not really needing food is a separate issue entirely; they need to get upset a lot faster than they currently do. I let all of my creatures go without food or rest for about half an hour before any of them started to leave my dungeon or revolt.
     
  6. Randy19
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    Randy19 Bafu

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    The problem with that is and stays simply that extremely long but only one tile wide rooms will always be the most viable option then. If you dig 3x3 you have 3 walls on each side, aka 12 by your math, minus however many entrances you build. That's 9 tiles you have to build. Now dig 5x1 and you get 5x2walls as each tile counts TWO walls for a total of 10+ the ends of the sausage so to speak and you have your 12 walls for 5 instead of 9 tiles which is a saving of almost 50%.

    Even if you say wallprops can only be one per tile you would still be better of building 4x2 instead of 3x3 still saving you a tile. Square Rooms would be quiet frankly the worst possible you could build.
     
  7. Valderis Vandala
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    Valderis Vandala Ghoul

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    Oh ok. Shows how little I still know about this game.

    Didn't even know they could revolt or leave.
     
  8. SlyGoat
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    SlyGoat Firebreather

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    Minions have different rates of happiness decay and will gain happiness when they're doing activities they enjoy, such as training for gnarlings or researching for cultists. It's really difficult to actually get even a starving minion with no lair to leave your dungeon unless they have nothing to do but sit around being hungry and sleep deprived for a very long time. Augres and Succubi were the only ones that seemed to get angry enough to attack my dungeon core. A few witch doctors and necromancers left.
     
  9. HermanK
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    HermanK Priestess Backer

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    @Randy19 - your argument about 1 tile width rooms is baseless as there will be no props. And we have made suggestions in other threads on how to prevent the 1 tile width exploit even if wall props are a feature. What we want and what is expected is better efficiency from props if the room is closed. DK1 had this down to an art and it made perfect sence, DK2 rewarded you with extra wall props but no efficiency gain and was easily exploited with 1 column rooms, which let's be honest should have been patched out. WFTO offers nothing and hence most of us are building open plan dungeons which for some reason the devs are advocating, sounds more to me like a cop out because they have not had the resources to dive into this problem.
     
  10. SlyGoat
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    SlyGoat Firebreather

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    Are they? I haven't seen this stated, I really hope that isn't the case. I abhor these walmart dungeons. The single strip rooms looked better.
     
  11. Alfador
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    Alfador Disciple

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    Hey Slygoat, have you tested the minion slapping in terms of happiness as well?
    I've been doing a couple of testing with DK2 recently, and I find it funny how some creatures, mainly the smarter ones, can't really handle 3 slaps in the entirety of a map (then they begin sulking for the rest of it, but that's kinda of a bug; my favourite is when they're in the Casino or won the Jackpot and they're still sulking x) ).
    In WftO I don't do much slapping due to it's lack of efficiency; with the new update, I still require 2 slaps to reach it's maximum output... so I just use the Obey Spell.

    As for experiments on DK2, it would seem a wallprop occupies a tile on it's space, meaning single corridor rooms are much less effective than it was thought, since the wall on the other side can't have a wallprop; libraries for instance would only have Wallprops on a single side. Not to mention that center props offer 2 spaces, while wall props only 1. It's an example of reinforcing walls making the room slightly more effective, but not as much as it could with a square room. But if the Devs want to solve this problem it's as simple as requiring a Center prop to be effective. I still say some DK1 mechanics of room efficiency would be a great addition (The Potion room reminds me a bit of this, since it's basically Spells for Gold).

    I hope the Space+Wall issue be resolved in a major update in this game, or more importantly, a Statement saying their intentions of improving the game to a Dungeon Builder and not Wallmart Designer (I liked this analogy).
     
  12. Triscopic
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    Triscopic Gargoyle Backer

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    I've been a part of the community for a long time and I've never heard the devs advocating open plan dungeons per se, rather they want walled and open plan to both be viable (with the general view that open plan would favour wrath players and walled would favour sloth).

    FWIW, I've found that being totally open allows dungeon breaches to get to my core faster, but too many walls leads to too much drop in usable space so I'm now making mixed dungeons.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2015
  13. Eloque
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    Eloque Dwarven Worker

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    With space at such a premium, building walls is senseless. I really wish they'd changed that.
     
  14. HermanK
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    HermanK Priestess Backer

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    @Triscopic. Its true they have not directly advocated open plan dungeons, this would most certainly result in backlash, what they have done is indirectly advocated it with the present prop rules, space limitation and zero benefit/penalty to having/not having a wall around a room. I have to wonder why they went to the trouble of making wall art!!! Yes there are defensive benefits to having SOME rooms walled but that sounds like a pathetic attempt at sugar coating a glaring issue!
     
  15. Psycix
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    Psycix Dryad Founder

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    Yeah, the claims of "it has defensive benefits" is not strong enough at all. If I can't defend an outer room I can't defend an inner room either.
    Better to simply have an open dungeon with a double wall on the outside then. Or even better, gain mapcontrol and have the wall close to the enemies dungeon, so that you're fighting far away from home.
    Open dungeons are the way to go.

    If anyone disagrees, hit me up for multiplayer and we will 1v1 to find out who's right.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2015
  16. Valderis Vandala
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    Valderis Vandala Ghoul

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    Double walls don't work, at least if you mean this as a 2 block deep wall and not 2 separate walls.

    If you make a wall 2 blocks deep the outer block will simply lose its wall status as soon and a tile near it is claimed by the enemy.
     
  17. Alfador
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    Alfador Disciple

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    Noooo... they didn't.
    Did they?
    I'm not surprised if they did intend such terrible design in the game though... I mean, just look at the Tutorials; they block your camera and just about every other character choice+movement; it's terrible Game Design right there. You should never force your player to obey the game, but to always let it flow. Like here, in this video about Super Mario -
    . Classic Masterpiece.

    But seriously... that is the most preposterous excuse I have ever read.
    I'm also not even adding anything to the reply of Psycix, to which I completely agree with.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Look, look here, such beautiful maps. Clearly that one is for D&D, but there! That's a real dungeon!
    We can admire the corridors, the doors separating the rooms, you can just imagine the possible combinations of traps you can make here.
    This game is not Dungeon Keeper, I reckon that, but it is not only his Spiritual Sequel, but also a Dungeon Management Game; so, where's our Dungeons? The game as it is, it's about building Super Market Aisles!
    It's ridiculous that they consider that part of the Strategy! The best strategy should be about the best dungeon you can build, in the least amount possible. If you wish to circumvent that, then THAT should be the risk taker.
    I like the idea of the Sins and so on, and it's true, the faster you focus on a particular Sin, the faster you move towards a different way of obtaining your goals, and you get extra rooms that do require more space to build for their added benefits, but there is no real penalty whatsoever for ignoring walls and just build crap in whatever tiles. The Campaign itself forces you to do it due to it's terrible lack of space.

    In DK2 there was no difference between having a walled up Torture Room 3x3 (with one entrance), from a non-walled up Torture Room 5x5. Mostly, because walled-up also counts as your Tiles! And you can even share those between other adjacent rooms!
    THIS is good design! Great Design actually!
    It forces you not only to take care of your Dungeon Design, but also to take care of your walls and reinforcing them. You also get to minimize space by making it more efficient! Bullfrog took that thought to care since their First game, changing the rules slightly in DK2.
    Here, in WFTO, they just skipped that! Entirely! It's awful! Because it's Dungeon Building that makes this game what it is! Not our fresh memories from DK! That so many often go back, because it's missing it's feel most of the times.

    And even better, I like how we have replacement Earth, something we felt was missing, but then we have the Underminer, making reinforcing walls even more useless! I mean, the Reinforced walls doesn't even deter the Underminer power. Not even a Garrison helps (and it really should). I like the warning it makes when someone breaks through your walls "Your Dungeon Has Been Breached!" with the Underminer it's something like "OH SHIT THEY BLEW UP ALL THE WALLS AROUND YOUR MIDAS DOOR AND ARE CIRCUMVENTING ALL YOUR TRAPS!".
    Then again, this Underminer abuse is another topic, back to the Dungeon Building.

    Long story short, this game seriously needs a way to rethink this Dungeon Building design. We want to build rooms and be rewarded for that; we want to know that if a player makes silly Wallmart Aisles they get penalized for it; big time! Having a walled up barracks of at least 3x5 should be way better than having a non-walled up 5x5.

    If they want to focus space as an essential strategy, they should rethink how they do it without penalizing every player that wants to play the game by actually building a Dungeon.
    Either way, expansion is a necessary requirement in every strategy game. Just take the Gold Shrines off our Dungeon Core and put them far away for added difficulty. Having large tiles of Earth farther away also gives you the decision to expand to that particular place, as long there's additional space for Lairs+Hatchery and maybe a Tavern (which would also require extra imps or more management).

    Seriously Devs, this game has great potential but it's not hanging on a very sturdy girder, since this is it's base mechanic.
     
    GummiBear and Eloque like this.
  18. Eloque
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    Eloque Dwarven Worker

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    The question to the devs is this then: Why build walls at all?
     
  19. Psycix
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    Psycix Dryad Founder

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    The answer is going to be the same old story about walls having defensive purposes.
    The problem is that this comes from people who are convinced Steven fright is unbeatable. They just aren't good enough at the game to really understand how this design choice is working out.
     
  20. Eloque
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    Eloque Dwarven Worker

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    A good defense is strong offense. Why build walls if that same room allows me more minions?
    Or if walls are quite easily bypassed?
     

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