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Goblins Vs Black knights

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Jan 2, 2013
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#1
Didn't stand a chance but really they shouldn't,not with equal numbers.

Goblins had a pretty good tactic but it failed because you could have the same number of strong enemies as weak.So my suggestion is for minions to have different counts towards the max.For example:

Dark Angel = 1
Black knight = 0.75
Goblin= 0.25
Flies = 0.20

So if the portal limit was 10 you could have 15 black knights or 50 flies or 20 goblins + 5 dark angels etc.

This would also introduce more tactical gameplay.For instance weaker enemies would need lots of space while stronger enemies would work best through narrow corridors and doorways.
 
Jan 2, 2013
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#4
Not sure how that is an issue.Players would often control what minions they'd end up with by the rooms they built and disposing of minions they did not want.Also I would assume weaker enemies would be more common.

Edit:
Ha yeah, sorry didn't catch your follow up post.
 
Jan 8, 2013
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#7
Sorry I just don't agree with this one. The system worked in DK2, I don't think you should try to change it so drastically. Sometimes you just have to toss that occasional useless firefly out. Keeps you on edge ;).
 

Robofish

Necromancer
WFTO Founder
Dec 1, 2012
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Surrey, laughing at how rubbish Sussex is.
#8
I think they are trying to balance out creatures a lot more in this game. Still, I think this could be an okay system, but I'd have it more like goblin(WTFO equivalent) 0.75 - Black knight(WFTO equivalent) 1.0 partly because of the every child is precious policy they are going with, but also because I have no idea where you would house 200 fly's ;)
 
Jun 27, 2012
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#9
Personly I quite like having weaker creatures. Not all creatures should be equal.

Trolls couldnt do much in either game but where still very usefull in the workshop for example. And flies where quite usefull for exploring.

Goblins, while weak, train fast and where quite usefull still because of this. They'd be level 4 in no time.

I just enjoy having a bit of a hierarchy. Although I don't mind the weaker creatures being capable of becomeing stronger creatures later on through some way. Especially in earlier dungeons having weaker creatures it just makes it feel more as an advancement when you start getting the tougher creatures.
 
Jan 2, 2013
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#10
I think they are trying to balance out creatures a lot more in this game. Still, I think this could be an okay system, but I'd have it more like goblin(WTFO equivalent) 0.75 - Black knight(WFTO equivalent) 1.0 partly because of the every child is precious policy they are going with, but also because I have no idea where you would house 200 fly's ;)
I haven't looked up this 'every child is precious policy' but seen what others have posted about it something about not throwing away minions.I think that just means they don't want minions that everyone disposes of,this system is supporting that.I don't think it matters that people favour some minions over others but that it's not a global thing.

As to housing bigger parties of minions you could just have 'shared accommodation' where when minions overflow on the living space accommodation enlarges with a new design(like in some of the bullfrog games)



Sorry I just don't agree with this one. The system worked in DK2, I don't think you should try to change it so drastically. Sometimes you just have to toss that occasional useless firefly out. Keeps you on edge ;).
But it didn't and MP highlighted this when you saw little variety in minion tactics(Blackknights and occasionally Vampires and traps) besides this is a new game not a clone,it should improve upon DK series and not be too nostalgic and be too close to the original,after all we want a fresh experience or we may as well keep playing DK1+2(which I would anyway but that's beside the point).I think DK1 minions were more solid in use but then they had a greater choice of skills.

they want to design all creatures to be useful all time so this system is obsolete ;)
Just because you can have more of one enemy doesn't make them less useful.Goblins are the very essence of the idea because they worked as a team,they attack and backoff letting another goblin attack so they keep there numbers up and allow for healing.Even a minion that might be partially suicidal would have use if it saved other minions(like settiing off traps).
 

Inlaa

Priestess
Jan 11, 2012
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#11
I have to admit, Keith: You're making a pretty compelling argument here.

I think something that people need to consider is that this system you suggest could be used in tandem with the every child is precious policy. If four goblins equal one black knight, then they're still not throwaway creatures at all because a pack of them will have a unique role in combat, one equal to having a single black knight. They're still precious; you just get more of them. It makes sense.

Hopefully, the developers will consider your idea very seriously. It seems like there's potential for it.
 

Lord of Riva

The Lord
WFTO Founder
Dec 29, 2012
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#13
Just because you can have more of one enemy doesn't make them less useful.
its not that your idea is bad , it pretty good actually but i hope it wont be necessary because every creature has roles to fulfill (over the whole match) without balancing it this way.

like it would be nice when a goblin is as useful as a Black Knight (in his specific job / Role /even Combat skill) in the same quantity.
they said they would make any creature useful and i will believe they do till proven otherwise.
if it cant be done then your option may be the best one, really ;)
 

Inlaa

Priestess
Jan 11, 2012
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#14
I was going to log off (and I did), but an idea popped into my head so I came back on.

I was thinking of how the rate of entry would still make it annoying to get a weaker creature instead of a stronger one as I was using the restroom, and a simple notion based ENTIRELY around your counts-per-creature idea came into my head. For simplicity's sake, let's say that there is a population cap (which I don't think there is), and that creatures come in three grades. I will define each of these.

First, the population cap is determined by portals and perhaps other factors, such as map-specific settings and a base creature cap. Second, minions come in three ranks: Weak, Average, and Strong. (Note: These are not my suggested names or settings for game mechanics, merely filler.) Weak creatures count as 0.5 population, Average as 1.0, and Strong as 2.0. VERY strong creatures may, perhaps, count higher than 2.0, but these will likely be rarer or be Hero units.

Now that we've decided these things, let's say that, in our scenario, we have a portal. Let's pretend that we currently have no creatures except imps (who do not count against our creature population limit) and that the time ALL creatures take, no matter what your population is, starts at a base time of 30 seconds. (This, again, is not a suggestion, merely an example, and I find it much more plausible that there would be variation on the time based on your current population.)

Now, let's assume that there is a formula for creature generation. With this formula, because of our scenario's specifications, we're ignoring the current population. So, the formula is this: xt=c, or rank * time = creature generation. Since we've asserted that 't' is 30 seconds, the only variable remaining is 'x,' the rank of our creature.

A weak creature takes 15 seconds to enter your dungeon, an average creature takes 30 seconds, and a strong creature takes 60 seconds. Simple and straightforward. What's just as important, here, is that the weak creature is 1/4 the strength of a strong creature (generally speaking) and also takes 1/4 the amount of time to enter your dungeon. In other words, the creature strength directly influences how long it takes for the creature to spawn.

In order for this to work, the creature type, or at least the creature rank, would have to be determined as soon as your last creature was created. I.E., the moment creature 1 steps out of the portal, the game decides what creature 2 will be; the moment creature 2 steps out of the portal, the game decides what creature 3 will be. (Again, you can safely replace 'creature' with 'rank' and it will work just as well.) If you are no longer able to recruit the same creature due to a lack of rooms (such as losing them to a rival Underlord), then the game can be designed to either A) let you recruit the creature anyway, or B) "reroll" what creature you get.

Again, this is just a slight deviation / addition on the idea Keith presented. It should also be noted that the actual formula for the creature appearance would look more like x(formula that determines base creature recruitment time based on population)=c. I know, that may be obvious, but I felt it important enough to write down anyway.

Anyway, that's my idea. Pretend I ended this sentence with something utterly cunning and hysterical, please.
 
Likes: r4a5a88

r4a5a88

Blood Imp
WFTO Founder
Jan 4, 2013
27
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#15
Didn't stand a chance but really they shouldn't,not with equal numbers.

Goblins had a pretty good tactic but it failed because you could have the same number of strong enemies as weak.So my suggestion is for minions to have different counts towards the max.For example:

Dark Angel = 1
Black knight = 0.75
Goblin= 0.25
Flies = 0.20

So if the portal limit was 10 you could have 15 black knights or 50 flies or 20 goblins + 5 dark angels etc.

This would also introduce more tactical gameplay.For instance weaker enemies would need lots of space while stronger enemies would work best through narrow corridors and doorways.
one of the bad things of the system is, if u wnat a stronger cerature and reached ur limit u would have to kick out a ton of small creatures and that ad.

Most likely system will be mathemathecally as Inlaa said (but his post is a little too big to quote).
The system will first have to calculate the CHANCES for getting and based on that which one is going to popp out of the Portal.
Chance Calculation:
The Chance for creature X will be calculated by rooms necesary/ you have [R], it's personal max of how many of them u can have [Y] (Based on the scenario or misson), how many creatures u may have [N] (based on how many portals u have)and other Creatures that may spawn there which brings me too this:

X = R/(N*Y+B)

R is bool it can be true 1 or false 0.
N*Y is chance calculation basics for the many chances there are for it to come.
So in conclusion the more rooms and and creatures u have the lesser the chances to get a certain one.

BEWARE: I am not a mathematician so this no reliable formula. I do not reccomend for home usage.
 
Jan 2, 2013
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#16
one of the bad things of the system is, if u wnat a stronger cerature and reached ur limit u would have to kick out a ton of small creatures and that ad.
You know you wouldn't have to go scouring your dungeon for them ,just go to the creature panel to get them unless I'm misunderstanding you.
 

Rezal

Templar
WFTO Backer
Jan 11, 2013
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#17
Geez every time I write a post I always come up with a good reply but never type it out right,so here it goes

Goblins come in packs,they coward creatures of the underworld,the only time they would fight,if they out number the enemies.
They are your low paid 1st into the fight minions,they made to be expendable. . .In short this idea works with goblins,but I feel one Black Knight is worth one Dark Angel,and is in turn worth one Mistress,I would rather like to see goblins come in pairs,that 2 goblins is worth 1 of your creature cap,but be more cowardly if not backed by other stronger creatures,would also be fun if you have say 10 goblins one of your cowardly goblins will become a goblin king.
 

Nepene

Blood Imp
WFTO Backer
Jan 7, 2013
74
29
5
#18
I'd prefer the dungeon keeper system, where each creature counted as 1 and if you wanted more you'd have to either build buildings or capture enemies.

Each unit should have appropriate abilities to support their role, making them all valuable in a certain context.
 
Jan 2, 2013
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#19
Just thought of an interesting slant on the idea.Why not minions get summons ie A Goblin Warlord might summon Goblin soldiers just like the Dark angel summoned skeletons.So rather than there be weak cannon fodder minions they become a summonable minions.A fly like creature could be summoned by some other minion (maybe some diseased type although Biledemon doesn't seem the summoner type).I think the remaining weak minions in DK1+2 I'd say could be stronger anyway,just the fly and goblin don't seem like they should ever be as strong as a Dark knight or Dark angel even with utility ability IMO.There was also a summoner in Majesty so I do think they would fit in,just that the Darkangel summons were next to useless.

By the way I'm not assuming DK minions will appear in WFTO they are just examples.
 
Jun 27, 2012
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#20
I rather just have a standard population count with each creature counting as one, with perhaps zombies or such not counting at all if you can controll such creatures.

I don't think all creatures should be good in combat. Each creature should be usefull of course, but many could still be weak in one on one combat. Some might be great at giving buffs, slowing and holding enemies in place, making traps, researching spells, exploring, etc.

And of course attitude can be important as well. Powerfull creatures should be harder to please since they know they have power. They want more money, they might refuse to work with a certain creature, etc. Weaker creatures would be less arrogant and easier to please.

Thats pretty much what I think it should come down to, the more powerfull they are, the more difficult they are to keep happy. And the weaker they are, the easier they are to keep happy.

Of course the weakest creatures should still be usefull. The best workshop creature should be a weak one. Exellent worker, poor combatant. Like the troll, maybe a bit better at working perhaps.
 
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