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Lower APM and increasing space efficiency.

Jan 20, 2015
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#1
When i play this game i feel like i should loving every single minute of it. But one thing just ruins the whole experience for me, and that's the required APM(actions per minute) to even complete with the bots. I feel like i have to do everything everywhere at the same time, which doesn't really suit the style of the game.

Since this is a dungeon management game, it should have a low(er/-ish) APM and the progress should be slower, unlocking sin should take longer as the game ,as it is right now, feels a bit like DK in super speed(however this may just be me that's not used to it, or haven't learned how to use it properly). If this is intentional, the option for a more casual mode would benefit the game greatly, imo.

Another thing i noticed is that some rooms have REALLY bad space efficiency. They take ALOT of space but don't really give much in return, such as the training room. The training room has extremely limited capacity, and very few monsters can train in them unless you make them inhumanely large(i made a 4x6 training room, but only 2 creatures could train in it).

I apologize if i've failed to spot these things in the archives and the list of previous suggestions.
 
Jan 3, 2013
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#2
To be honest, this game doesn't require lots of actions, once you learn what is what and when has to be done. I've made a video recently where I practically did nothing but kept building my dungeon according the plan - I ended up winning a match against AI without even micro-managing my army. In other words - few useful clicks are more than enough.

Regarding the game progress - it's something devs will probably announce soon, I'm sure Sin gain/research rate, as long as some other things will be tweaked, so player won't be able to build up as quickly as now.

Room efficiency indeed could be revised in few ways. I'd also suggest that devs add ''wall'' efficiency to rooms, so player who makes rooms with most walls intact could use room far better/faster than the one who just tie every room together.
 

mishko

Witch Doctor
Founder
Feb 27, 2012
866
238
440
24
Michigan
#3
To be honest, this game doesn't require lots of actions, once you learn what is what and when has to be done. I've made a video recently where I practically did nothing but kept building my dungeon according the plan - I ended up winning a match against AI without even micro-managing my army. In other words - few useful clicks are more than enough.

Regarding the game progress - it's something devs will probably announce soon, I'm sure Sin gain/research rate, as long as some other things will be tweaked, so player won't be able to build up as quickly as now.

Room efficiency indeed could be revised in few ways. I'd also suggest that devs add ''wall'' efficiency to rooms, so player who makes rooms with most walls intact could use room far better/faster than the one who just tie every room together.
Unfortunately, I think the devs have stated they don't want wall efficiency in the game, even though personally I would prefer it. I think since room props are more spaced out than in dungeon keeper that the game could benefit from having minions work slightly faster depending on the amount of reinforced walls the room has. I don't think it should be as powerful as dungeon keeper to the point where you get wall props as work points but I think that it should increase the speed of which they work
 

Haze

Disciple
Mar 31, 2013
91
17
140
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Moscow, Russia
#4
The training room has extremely limited capacity, and very few monsters can train in them unless you make them inhumanely large (i made a 4x6 training room, but only 2 creatures could train in it).
Well, this really irritates me. Training room as it is already breaks the concept of a small and space-wise dungeon, and this is only the basic room.
 
Feb 1, 2014
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#5
4x6 is one of the least efficient ways to build a room, with 5x5 you could train four creatures and with 7x7 nine.

I agree that I would like some extra motivation for building rooms with fortified walls, a work speed bonus could work since the devs only stated that they dislike wall props.

Also, the training room has an upgrade with allows gnarlings to train creatures, I dont know how it would work but its highly possible that the efficiency of the props will increase.
 
Likes: mishko

AvatarIII

Huntress
Founder
Apr 20, 2012
1,713
758
570
32
Worthing, West Sussex
#6
When i play this game i feel like i should loving every single minute of it. But one thing just ruins the whole experience for me, and that's the required APM(actions per minute) to even complete with the bots. I feel like i have to do everything everywhere at the same time, which doesn't really suit the style of the game.

Since this is a dungeon management game, it should have a low(er/-ish) APM and the progress should be slower, unlocking sin should take longer as the game ,as it is right now, feels a bit like DK in super speed(however this may just be me that's not used to it, or haven't learned how to use it properly). If this is intentional, the option for a more casual mode would benefit the game greatly, imo.

Another thing i noticed is that some rooms have REALLY bad space efficiency. They take ALOT of space but don't really give much in return, such as the training room. The training room has extremely limited capacity, and very few monsters can train in them unless you make them inhumanely large(i made a 4x6 training room, but only 2 creatures could train in it).

I apologize if i've failed to spot these things in the archives and the list of previous suggestions.
The bots are not balanced yet, the initial focus is on making them as hard as possible, then giving them limiters to make them easier. their development is still in the "making them as hard as possible" phase. it is probable that their 0.7.0 upgrade will be as hard as they get, then they will start nerfing them (most likely by reducing their APM), and giving them personality.
 
Jan 20, 2015
3
2
15
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#7
4x6 is one of the least efficient ways to build a room, with 5x5 you could train four creatures and with 7x7 nine.

I agree that I would like some extra motivation for building rooms with fortified walls, a work speed bonus could work since the devs only stated that they dislike wall props.

Also, the training room has an upgrade with allows gnarlings to train creatures, I dont know how it would work but its highly possible that the efficiency of the props will increase.
Well, restricting certain rooms to only squares, or only rectangles is a poor move by the devs imo. In this game you want as much freedom as possible, and design your own dungeon so by putting restrictions to room shapes, you also limit the players creativity. The general rule should be "Larger rooms equal more efficiency, with SOME boundaries".
 
Feb 1, 2014
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#8
Well, restricting certain rooms to only squares, or only rectangles is a poor move by the devs imo. In this game you want as much freedom as possible, and design your own dungeon so by putting restrictions to room shapes, you also limit the players creativity. The general rule should be "Larger rooms equal more efficiency, with SOME boundaries".
You can also build a 3x5 to get two props or 3x7 for three props, my point is that there is a logic to follow and I dont think is particulary restrictive, you just have to know the rules in order to get results.
 

AvatarIII

Huntress
Founder
Apr 20, 2012
1,713
758
570
32
Worthing, West Sussex
#9
Well, restricting certain rooms to only squares, or only rectangles is a poor move by the devs imo. In this game you want as much freedom as possible, and design your own dungeon so by putting restrictions to room shapes, you also limit the players creativity. The general rule should be "Larger rooms equal more efficiency, with SOME boundaries".
You can do L or T shaped rooms too. (a 3x5 with 2x3 more tiles placed on any edge would add another prop)

iirc the decision to not have wall props was based on

a) allowing the player to build wall-less dungeons, if they so please. Someone could build a very compact dungeon with no walls if they wanted, at the expense of defensibility, if walls had props, there would never be a good reason to do this.
b) to prevent players building long thin rooms. If walls had props dungeons would regularly have corridors lined with rooms, also long thin rooms and weird shaped rooms are ugly
c) to make it easier to see visually how many props a room has. Props are tied to unit spawning so by having wall props it would be harder to know how many of each minion you should be expecting
d) to make room efficiency easier to work out at a glance (tiles/props). If walls had props, you would need to remember how many wall tiles equal one prop
e) the amount of wall tiles to equal one prop would, for balance purposes, have to be so high it would be almost negligible anyway. (it would need to be at least 10 tiles per prop to prevent long thin 10x1 rooms being better than square 3x3 rooms)
 
Jan 20, 2015
3
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#10
You can also build a 3x5 to get two props or 3x7 for three props, my point is that there is a logic to follow and I dont think is particulary restrictive, you just have to know the rules in order to get results.
3x5 is NOT a small space... 2 props is not nearly enough for that space.
 
Feb 1, 2014
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#11
3x5 is NOT a small space... 2 props is not nearly enough for that space.
I get the feeling that you are trying to play this game exactly as other dungeon management games and the problem is : This is a different game with a different pace and mechanics, instead of comparing it you could try to learn how it works and if you complain about lack of props explain why more of them would be better without using external examples.
Also, the AI is 100% efficiency right now, its not going to be the normal way to play so usually you will be able to do a more relaxed play style.
 
Jan 3, 2013
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#13
how many props would you like to see in that kind of space? most props take up a full 1x1 tile, any more props and they would get in the way of units pathing.
Barracks could really have 5 props instead of 4. Same with torture chamber. Other rooms are fine with 4 props at 5x5.
 

AvatarIII

Huntress
Founder
Apr 20, 2012
1,713
758
570
32
Worthing, West Sussex
#16
Normally somewhere in the middle, while those at sides would be slightly pushed away.
that just seems messy to me, and it still does not allow for a full tile width paths for units to walk through.

I can understand about rooms like the training room looking sparse, but I do not think extra props is a good solution for that.
 

Medjay

Shadow
Backer
Aug 23, 2012
1,095
491
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Canterbury
#17
Could two creatures perhaps use one prop? Perhaps the prop's appearance could be altered such that one prop appears to be two training machines back to back?
 

AvatarIII

Huntress
Founder
Apr 20, 2012
1,713
758
570
32
Worthing, West Sussex
#18
Could two creatures perhaps use one prop? Perhaps the prop's appearance could be altered such that one prop appears to be two training machines back to back?
That's exactly how Archive upgrade works, And I believe that something similar work with barracks upgrade (iirc, barracks upgrade makes it so gnarlings can train on a prop with another unit, and when doing so they train up faster than normal too)
 

mishko

Witch Doctor
Founder
Feb 27, 2012
866
238
440
24
Michigan
#19
You can do L or T shaped rooms too. (a 3x5 with 2x3 more tiles placed on any edge would add another prop)

iirc the decision to not have wall props was based on

a) allowing the player to build wall-less dungeons, if they so please. Someone could build a very compact dungeon with no walls if they wanted, at the expense of defensibility, if walls had props, there would never be a good reason to do this.
b) to prevent players building long thin rooms. If walls had props dungeons would regularly have corridors lined with rooms, also long thin rooms and weird shaped rooms are ugly
c) to make it easier to see visually how many props a room has. Props are tied to unit spawning so by having wall props it would be harder to know how many of each minion you should be expecting
d) to make room efficiency easier to work out at a glance (tiles/props). If walls had props, you would need to remember how many wall tiles equal one prop
e) the amount of wall tiles to equal one prop would, for balance purposes, have to be so high it would be almost negligible anyway. (it would need to be at least 10 tiles per prop to prevent long thin 10x1 rooms being better than square 3x3 rooms)
I am going to reiterate what I said about how having reinforced walls in rooms should at least slightly increase the efficiency in which creatures work in that room, since there are so few props it would be a nice option for them to at least work better by having walls. Not talking about wall props at all but the efficiency at which they work since there is also a lot of visual feedback regarding reinforced room walls and materials on the walls that look like they would help them work.
 

AvatarIII

Huntress
Founder
Apr 20, 2012
1,713
758
570
32
Worthing, West Sussex
#20
I am going to reiterate what I said about how having reinforced walls in rooms should at least slightly increase the efficiency in which creatures work in that room, since there are so few props it would be a nice option for them to at least work better by having walls. Not talking about wall props at all but the efficiency at which they work since there is also a lot of visual feedback regarding reinforced room walls and materials on the walls that look like they would help them work.
I think even this would still be rife for abuse, even more so than wall props, imagine a 3x3 archive connected archive tiles covering all the corridor tiles in the dungeon for example, so you only need one cultist researching for x times the efficiency! Although you say there is visual feedback in regards to things on the walls looking like they should help, there is no feedback in regards to how much they help, and that is important.

The best way I can think of making this work is maybe saying that each prop can only gain additional efficiency from wall tiles within a certain radius (3 tiles maybe?) but then you'd have to show it visually and it would just be a headache, and you'll have people making weirdly shaped rooms for the sake of it, and the effect would have to be negligible, something like 1% bonus for every wall tile within the radius, and at that levels, is it really worth it?
 
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