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Map Editor - Various Improvements

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sunyudai

Dwarven Worker
Aug 2, 2016
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#1
The Problems:

The map editor is amazing, something that I truly appreciate. But, it has some minor organizational issues that are compounded by poor tool-tips on the map editor items. For example, Water and Lava appear under normal terrain, but the themed variants appear under the special terrain sections. The lettering of the icons helps, but a more explanatory tool-tip would be even more helpful.

The Proposal:

#1: Add a third row to the terrain options, reduce Icon size to ~ 80% of current.
Pretty self explanatory, it just frees up more space and prevents the need to scroll to the right. I also intend to propose bringing more of the campaign objects into the map editor in another thread, so more space would be needed.

#2: Reorganize the terrain options into different categories. Specifically:
Standard Terrain -
All of the empty block types (Dirt, claimed tile) | All of the solid block types (dirt, gravel, impassible, brimstone, etc.) | All of the "Paint Gold" options

Liquids & Bridges -
All of the liquid types (Water, lava, gold, blood) | All of the non-buildable room bridges

Pits & Roads -
All of the deep pits (bottomless, lava, etc.) | Phaestian Road (and any other roads that pop up later)

Rooms -
All build-able rooms + Carpet, including buildable bridges + lava bridge (I count the spell as buildable)

Etc: Special rooms, traps, constructs, creatures, etc. would be unchanged.

#3: Improve tool-tips.
Specifically:
Give all of the liquid, pits, and bridges specific, unique names which appear in both the map-editor icon tool-tip and the terrain tool-tip. For example: "Mira Bridge", "Mira Pit" and "Mira Water" for the terrain that has the super-geometric cubist pattern from her home realm.
 

sunyudai

Dwarven Worker
Aug 2, 2016
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#2
The Problems:

Certain tasks in the map editor - namely placing lots of minions with a level other than 1 and tweaking terrain ownership around - are a bit more tedious than they should be.

The Proposals:


#1: Unit-level drop-down.
Add a unit-level drop down to the main map editor UI, next to the faction select box. his drop down should have the values 1 - 10. If you are placing any creature that can have a level, it will set the creature's level to that number with the minimum XP to have achieved that value. If you are placing anything that does not have a level, such as a spirit worker or room tile, the box is simply ignored.

This prevents a lot of tedious right-clicking and choosing from drop-downs.

Alternatively, adding a "Paint Levels" tool could serve the same purpose.

#2: Smarter Claimed & Unclaimed Empty Tiles.
Currently, the "empty tile" and "claimed tile" options are both rather counter-intuitive. they bot will create claimed tiles if your faction is anything other than "Terrain", and neither will remove a room or special room if you place it on one. I suggest the following behaviors instead:
  • Claimed tile:
    • If you have any non-terrain faction set, it places a claimed tile of terrain for that faction.
    • If you have the terrain faction set, it places claimed neutral tiles.
    • If there is a room, shrine, trap, or construct in that square, it also removes those items.
  • Empty Tile:
    • Regardless of your faction settings, it should place an unclaimed empty tile.
    • If there is a room, shrine, trap, or construct in that square, it removes those items

This prevents excessive faction toggling when tweaking room ownership.
 

sunyudai

Dwarven Worker
Aug 2, 2016
27
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#3
I'm not sure whether to tag this as a room or a shrine, as it is somewhere between either.

The Problems:
Twofold. First, sometimes for the story of a map, you want to give the empire a dungeon heart - it's done a few times in the campaign, I noticed. However, in the current map editor, adding a true dungeon heart gives the Empire player all of the Underlord abilities (Move creatures via hand of evil, spells, imps, etc.) which may not be desirable. Second, sometimes for plot reasons you want to create an already defeated dungeon to take over - again, this is done in the campaign.

The Proposal:
Create a new Room/Shrine that looks in every way like a dungeon heart, but does not carry the script that a regular dungeon heart has. The room should behave slightly differently based on the faction it is placed under in the map editor:
  • If it is Imperial, then it serves as a script-less mission objective - it must be destroyed like an inhibitor or enemy heart.
  • If it is Neutral, then its capture causes a capturing chain reaction for all connected neutral rooms, tiles, and shrines.
  • It may not be placed in any of the Underlord factions.

The Room:

Highlight: Place an empire controlled dungeon heart that is a campaign objective, but does not give the Empire Underlord spells. Also used as a central capture point for pre-defeated neutral dungeons.
Vein: N/A, not buildable, map editor only.
Associated Units: N/A
Appearance: Same as dungeon heard for theme.

Function: Imperial Mission Object: Similar to the actual dungeon heart and the inhibitor, if it exists on the map, it must be destroyed to complete the map.
Function: Neutral Dungeon Capture: (When first captured.) Similar to capturing the dungeon heart of a defeated enemy, it captures all neutral rooms, shrines, and floor tiles that are connected to it, but does not capture unconnected rooms or tiles. Connected is determined by being a valid tile/room/shrine that is adjacent to the heart, or adjacent to a tile that is converted due to this effect, or being adjacent to a tile that is controlled by the player that is adjacent to the effect. Additionally, it wil lconvert neutral walls to allied walls, but has no effect on dirt or enemy walls.
Function: Defeated Heart: When captured, it acts in all ways as a defeated enemy dungeon heart - I.E. it stores a little bit of gold.

Props: n/a
 
Aug 18, 2015
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#4
For a defeated Undetlord Core you could let it get destroyed by some imperial units. Cage in his worker, so they won't claim tiles/shrines. Set the AI to easy, so it won't pick up units/workers.
then you should have a dead Underlord Dungeon, but you will need another Objective then, so you won't win as soon the underlord dies.
 

sunyudai

Dwarven Worker
Aug 2, 2016
27
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#5
Bohser,

Thank you for the reply, but that does really help the situation that I am describing: For one particular map, I gave a Dungeon Heart to the empire (for the map scenario's plot.) This had the effect of giving he empire all of the Underlord abilities, such as spell-casting and imps, which wasn't desirable for the plot that I had intended.
 

Reyh!

Arcanist
WFTO Backer
Dec 9, 2012
313
113
325
Norway
#6
I vote yes for both of these, especially #1. When making a map you use a lot of time, but the thing I use most of my time on, is adding levels. I've used about 2-4 hours adding levels, and with an easier way of adding levels, I could have used about 1 hour to do the same thing. And for #2...I just agree with your suggestion.. :p
 

Noontide

Designer / Community Manager
Brightrock Games
Dec 8, 2012
2,141
1,776
700
Brighton, UK
#8
Hi Sunyudai and all others!

I've merged your threads so I can provide an answer to everything at once. Firstly thanks for all your feedback, there's a lot of great ideas here, some of which we've considered before and others which we haven't. I wanted to drop in and provide some insight into these and also let you know what's likely and what's unlikely.

To start off I'll clarify that we'd love to make many of these changes, but there are a considerable number of technical limitations dotted around the Map Editor itself, needless to say it's current design has a lot of compromises made so that it can work.

This is ultimately the cost of our own planning in the aftermath of the Dungeoneer fallout, with priority being placed on getting the game working, we never really planned to support a Map Editor and much of the game wasn't designed around it. Most of your suggestions sadly fall into the cattegory of requiring some particularly nasty reworks to underlying code namely:

  1. Extra rows in tabs
  2. Additional terrain categories
  3. Improved Tooltips
  4. Claimed Tile Mechanics
  5. Dungeon Core Mechanics
Each of these things is do-able but the cost of making the changes is quite significant, much more than you might expect. We definitely agree that they're great ideas and would love to do them all in the name of QoL but if we weigh up how best to use our limited resources we think there's some more interesting things we can do.

Your final suggestion, the ability to pre-select the level of units that are placed was originally in the design for the Map Editor, unfortunately at the time it was not possible due to the above reasons. However since then we've rejigged a lot of the code in that area and now it's very possible, there's not technical restrictions for us here.

So that's on the table, but it's on the low priority end for us. We recognize how much time it would save and trust me, having heatedly discussed at length with the lead designer on the importance of this feature we're very much for it. For now the restriction is implementing UI for it and whether the time required could be better spent elsewhere.

So I can say that we're looking to get it in but it might be dropped in favor of cooler features for the map editor which we're not able to talk about at this time, but will certainly make a lot of people happy. Whatever happens there will be some changes coming to the map editor in patch 1.6. Look forward to it! :)

Cheers,

Lee
 
Likes: Reyh!

sunyudai

Dwarven Worker
Aug 2, 2016
27
14
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#10
Each of these things is do-able but the cost of making the changes is quite significant, much more than you might expect. We definitely agree that they're great ideas and would love to do them all in the name of QoL but if we weigh up how best to use our limited resources we think there's some more interesting things we can do.
Fair enough. without taking a look at your source code, I wouldn't really be able to gauge the work load for any of these. So I'll keep submitting suggestions as they come to me and if they get rejected, hey, it's not my product. Keep to your vision. I understand that what I would like to see may not be worth the effort or what other people want to see.

Your final suggestion, the ability to pre-select the level of units that are placed was originally in the design for the Map Editor, unfortunately at the time it was not possible due to the above reasons. However since then we've rejigged a lot of the code in that area and now it's very possible, there's not technical restrictions for us here.
I understand the priority, but hearing that it's now a possibility, that's awesome!

Thank you very much for the reply.
 

sunyudai

Dwarven Worker
Aug 2, 2016
27
14
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34
#11
Dungeon Core Mechanics
Immediately after posting that, I realize that this one could also be solved by adding a starting room health % drop-down for placed rooms.

Considering the room tile-mechanics, that might not be any easier, but it's a thought.
 
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