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[Mechanic - Creature] End tier Avatar type Minion

trasapa

Warden
Founder
Feb 12, 2013
31
13
175
35
Sweden
#1
Yes very confusing title, i do apologize. But please bear with me.

1\\Idea
The Basic concept of this idea came to me after reading the thread about horny going into retirement and the lore ingame as well as replacement for his epicness.
What we have is a vacuum, a void to be filled after hornys leave. And there are some pretty big shoes on that void since horny sure was a iconic character for the DK series.
So my vivid imagination immediately started spinning around cool and epic replacements, i thought up huge rockelementals that never needed sleep nor pay just squishish to squish, ghostly daemons roaming my dungeon possessing enemies that dared venture into my domain and even enormous larva that would devour rock and foes alike. But then it came to me, these are all types of minions that i would like to see and that would fit my personal playstyle but certainly no one else. It was the same problem that i myself had with horny, sure he was big, cool, and.. well horny.. But i personally did not find him that interesting or valuable for my particular gameplay. I had my dungeon well planned, i surrounded myself only with minions i was fond of and i could take on any foe with relative ease. So what was the point of having that raging maniac terrorizing my otherwise peaceful population of servants, it sure was a hassle since i always ended up with the 3*3 horny tactic(separate hatchery, treasury and living quarters). So he only came in handy if the enemy for some reason managed to get inside my base, otherwise it was to much work getting him to the frontline on top of that risking him turning on my bile demons..
So something new was needed i thought to myself. Maybe a strong support unit would be fun. I loved the suggested creature by RyanAvx, the Impdriver. https://subterraneangames.com/threads/creature-impdriver.737/
But that would probably not fit everyone, just like horny did not fit some players. So what to do?
2\\Concept
One major change that WFTO brings to the DK table is customization and playstyle alternatives. And this through the mechanic of Veins; Sloth, Greed and Wraith. So why not let the gamers decide to some degree what they want as final epic minion through their choice of playstyle? I for one will probably focus on the sloth and greed and more or less neglect wraith since im not a straight forward offensive player. (this is all speculative ofc since i have not seen details on the trees).
So here is my thought, at the end or near the end of each tree you have some special minions you can put your blood into. For example the sloth tree have a "supercharged death imp"(©) that will help manage your growing dungeon by the means of rapid takeover of neutral tiles(maybe an aura of tiles at once), motivating all imps in your dungeon to work faster and even automatically repair and rebuild busted walls that pesky dwarves demolished. At the very end of his skill set he might be able to reinforce your walls to a level unseen by simple blood imps(1.5x the durability of normal reinforced). Anything that fits the playstyle of the sloth tree to make your managing of your dungeon easier and turtling a breeze.
The Greed variant is perhaps a sort of scribe, cultist looking guy that have some resemblance to a banker. He overwhelms the minion union with juristic mumbojumbo and are able to lower the minimum wage by some percent(all minions need only 70% regular pay). He manages your goldreserv and put your hard earned cash into trust funds and Cayman accounts to maximize your profit from every gold vein(1.2x gold income).
Wraith is of course focused on offensive tactics and he/she is carnage incarnate. This majestic creature of doom and destruction is highly skilled in combat and whats even better, he buffs other minions offensive capabilities around him. Perhaps his awesome aura makes all your minions level up faster and you are able to attract more offensive creatures to your dungeon than normal.
3\\Execution
How will all this be implemented and executed in the game then?
Well, i'm not sure.
But do not fret, i have some basic ideas my bacon loving friends(assuming you love bacon otherwise replace bacon with lettuce).
A) Each of these creatures are represented by a point invested in its respected tree. That is at tier 10(assuming the trees have somewhere around 10-12tiers) you can spend a point and unlock your super minion who will then emerge from your portal.
B) These monstrosities of hell and ham do not care for your puny point system. Rather they need a special room dedicated to their awesomeness. This room though is highly interested in your points(or not).. You unlock the room by investing the right amount of points in your selected tree(or not) and then research and/or construct it. Which in turn will draw this creature into your dungeon.
If A is presumed all skills that your super minion can acquire are from investing more points in the selected tree.
If B, perhaps it is a more hands on approach by sacrificing certain minions in the specific creature room or researching new skills in the research facility.
Or maybe they just acquire new skills as they level up.
I personally prefer alternative B over A. Mostly because i like building rooms.. But also since it produces another tactical thinking to your game. You must have space for this room and as such you must plan ahead for its construction. Should you build it near your frontline in case you want it to help in attacking or defending your dungeon but at the risk of loosing the room and possibly the creature. And also if its all about building the right room and has nothing to do with points invested a sloth player might even attract the wraith version to mix it up a bit. The wraith player on the other hand might get himself the sloth creature to manage his dungeon for him so he can focus on "omg frontline pwning"!
\\
Ok this escalated quickly.. Wall of text but i hope i get the point through. Maybe you just find it idiotic and rather want a fixed iconic super guy in which case i retract my previous statement. All in all it might just bring another confusing and annoying element to the game but i for one would really like the flexibility and game change it would provide. I also apologize if this already have been discussed, i scanned the forum rather quick and could not find the same thing.
 
Likes: Fireeye
Jan 3, 2013
3,241
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#2
Well, why not?

Infact - every player could also have a super creature based on the selected theme, meaning Ice Theme would grant a creature that is natural to Ice, Nature - to Nature and so on. Veins could instead decide the type of the creature ( fighter, magician, slasher ).
 
Likes: Amon

trasapa

Warden
Founder
Feb 12, 2013
31
13
175
35
Sweden
#3
Yes of course, that would bring even more customization to the game and that is always welcomed.
The more i think about it i like the idea of not being restricted to a particular tree for the creature. I'm rather fond of the thought that i, as say a sloth player, could get myself a fighter type to help me balance out my otherwise awesome dungeon building skills.
 
Likes: Amon

Lord of Riva

The Lord
Founder
Dec 29, 2012
2,786
923
485
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#4
why do people want a horny or something similar? some units have to be stronger than others but do we really need a creature that is absolutely overpowered? for what? Style?
there will be creatures unlocked via the veins (blood mage ) that will compliment your playstyle otherwise a creature like this become a pool for errors in the balancing.

i do not like this idea but im probably alone with my opinion there XD

anyway will add this under mechanics
 
Likes: Amon

trasapa

Warden
Founder
Feb 12, 2013
31
13
175
35
Sweden
#5
You could be absolutely right about the balancing issue Lordofriva and i don't believe you are the only one not fond of the idea ;)
That is actually why i came up with this concept, i did not like the uper pwness of horny in DK and i did rarely use him because he did not fit my playstyle. Thats why i thought it would be more fun to have some heavy utility minions instead that just helps you maintain your gaming style. (so the wraith guy should be fixed ofc to only boost your other minions offensive and such).

I do not want an overpowered unit that will bash all the competition tho bits with one blow. I just wanted the possibility to chose my own special minion that would help make my spelunking days easier. I'm not interested in unlocking another offensive type minion in the skilltree that wtfpwnz everything i.e the bloodmage.

Anyway, i agree with you that it could be a nightmare to balance.
 

Castigator

Gargoyle
Backer
Dec 30, 2012
433
237
305
Germany
#7
A rhetorical question: Why were Horny and the Avatar so ridiculously broken, while the normal creatures generally weren't?
It's one thing to say, that their damage was amazingly high, but mages and fairies, dragons and mistresses or samurai and giants could dish out similar damage. The standard creatures would need to specialise in their role and had drawbacks, that made countering them possible.
The end tiers overall stats, however were that good, that you needed your entire dungeon, to fight against these two. Horny had superior speed and damage as well as good staying power, due to his HP pool. The Avatar had average mobility, high damage and the best endurance in the game. His enormous HP reserve, defence and the ability to heal himself allowed him to take on entire dungeons of high level creatures. A worthy final boss. Also, one does not simply overrun the Avatar with boulders.
I'm sure, there will be bosses in WFTO. These bosses will be relevant to the story and be more powerful, than normal creatures.
I like to see those bosses in the singleplayer campaign, but I don't think they belong into multiplayer.
 

Fireeye

Augre
Backer
Dec 30, 2012
1,155
687
515
Ze Germany
#9
I like the idea of having different Super-Units depending on which Skill Tree you chose to pick. Of course, for the sake of balance, certain restriction need to apply:
- The player should be allowed to only have one super-creature at any given time, as they are not supposed to replace other units but rather to enhance your Dungeon in one way or another.
- The cost for acquiring a super-creature should be considerably high. Possibilities include extremely high pay in gold or the necessity to summon the creature by sacrificing multiple other, powerful minions in your temple.
- Another relevant question is whether the super-creature should be a permanent part of your dungeon or should only be summoned for short amounts of time. I generally would suggest the latter, as permanent Super-Units tend to put a strain on the games balance (think of the Titans in Age of Mythology).

Regarding the exact nature of the three different super-creatures, we should probably wait until we have more information about the three veins of evil, albeit I think that trasapa's suggestions are quite fitting.

PS: I'm not saying that the Super-Creature of the Rage vein should resemble or at least sound like Dawn of War's Bloodthirster, but I'm not saying it shouldn't, either.

It doesn't get more angry then that.
 
Jan 3, 2013
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#10
If we talk about price - Blood, Mana or both would be the best. I doubt anyone would sacrifice own creatures just to get one huge ( probably AI controlled ) monster who is only good at particular thing.

Also DK2 Horny, if we use him as an example wasn't overpowered :

He had high upkeep and normally after first minute he would drain your mana very quickly ( it's temple that was broken as it provided unlimited mana ).

He was rather slow, his range ability was a joke.

You couldn't control him, he was AI controlled. He could go for random unit, and that wasn't always the nearest one.

Freeze trap was best Horny killer. Once Frozen - he was useless.

Put any WFTO ''Avatar'' on his place and there - we get our own ''Horny'' for WFTO, except it doesn't have to be offensive, it can be defensive and cost much less, maybe even permanently stay with you, as long as it's AI controlled and would stay near your Heart Area.
 

Vaptor

Blood Imp
Backer
Feb 22, 2013
60
14
5
#11
I agree the players need some kind of trump card. it could help stave off defeat if they are on the verge of death ect but not be particuarly effective in attacks on enemy soil.
 
Likes: Amon
May 22, 2013
6
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#12
Please move or let me know if this is a post that should go somewhere else but this is my one "must say this" point that i want to make for this game.

The one thing i wanted from DK1 & 2 was always an avatar representation. I agree with those that say it shouldn't be overpowered.

To me i wanted the avatar to be a bit like Zordrak from an old cartoon i used to watch, The Dreamstone. He was a massive lizard dragon guy in armour on a throne (Google it!). He was too big to really go anywhere so would leave his body as a ghostly spirit, leaving his body behind as a stone statue which would slowly crumble until he returned. If he didn't return in time then it would fall to pieces and he would be lost.

Based on something like that, an avatar on the throne could be made of stone, or whatever, and then be possessed by the dungeon keeper to lead troops on the battlefield. In DK you could select a few troops to join you and follow you around etc. You could be used to buff those creatures a little bit and need protecting yourself. If balance of use is needed (so you can't charge into the heart of the enemy dungeon/keep) then maybe a similar idea of timed decay/ weakening could be implemented.

You may have to return as soon as possible to your throne for recharging (electrical or spiritual recharging), or you lose your body temporarily till a new one is grown/built. Or to be really mean you could lose it entirely, meaning you need to look after it but its not a massive game changer to lose your avatar.

Like a lot of people posting, this is turning into a wall of text, i'll wrap it up by pointing toward Evil Genius. You had an avatar then that needed to be protected and that's more of what i want.

I would rather have a fragile avatar needing protection than i would a super powered one.
 

theMarg0r

Dryad
Backer
Dec 28, 2012
871
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Under a killing Spoon
#13
Like a lot of people posting, this is turning into a wall of text, i'll wrap it up by pointing toward Evil Genius. You had an avatar then that needed to be protected and that's more of what i want.

I would rather have a fragile avatar needing protection than i would a super powered one.
Sorry, this isn't Evil Genius. The only way the player is physically represented in the world is his Nexus, not a dude. There'll probably be a mod for this, but it isn't what this game is about, it's just not happening, officially.
 
May 22, 2013
6
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#14
Ouch...

I don't want an Evil Genius clone, i was hoping to spark better ideas based on what i'd like to see. If it's not going in then that's cool.

Thanks for clearing up avatar plans, officially, it's appreciated.
 
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