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[Mechanic] Someone is always unhappy somewhere..

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Jan 9, 2012
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#1
Hello guys.

I have a suggestion for the game. But first a description of a problem i have had with DK1 and especially DK2. In DK, it was pretty easy to have a dungeon full of satisfied creatures. This lead to static gameplay and therefore the breaking of the immersive "living" dungeon feeling that the game(s) was supposed to have.

My suggestion therefore is to make it impossible (at least when having a greater variety of creatures than the most basic ones alone) to have a completely satisfied dungeon for more than a few minutes.
The point of this mechanic is to tell the player that his managing actually matters - not only in building the dungeon, but also managing its inhabitants more or less demonically.

Let me give you an example of what i mean:
Player has a dungeon consisting of 3 different types of creatures. They all have their needs fullfilled, but once in a while they get into a fight with each other - over a slice of meat, coin, or something else. The player, as in the DK games, is warned of these things of course, and it is now his turn to choose - will he separate the creatures from each other? - maybe he will just ignore them? will he slap both of them - to be democratic? or will he favor one over the other, making it more efficient for some time and the other more less so?

Thats it. Hope you like the suggestion.
 
Likes: erebus2075

Saint

Priestess
Dec 28, 2012
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#2
It's a good idea, but balance is key here. Mess it up and instead of defending your dungeon you will spend most your time solving domestic problems. Something not of a problem early on, but could ruin the late game. Still, it's a great idea and I am sure the devs would work out the balance issue.
 

Lord of Riva

The Lord
WFTO Founder
Dec 29, 2012
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#3
well i think its a little problematic...

in DK2 sometimes the announcer said "one of your creatures is unhappy" and i thought "wait what?"

after searching at least 5 minutes for said creature (in my creature filled dungeon) i see it and ... yeah as you can guess i really dont know where the problem is... didnt it get money? is it Hungry ? doesnt it like the fairy i converted?

after trying some things i found out that the way from the enemy dungeon (where it fought) to my hatchery was too long for said creature it was hungry... (yeah something of that really happened) as you can see feedback is really problematic and it consumes a lot of time (to the point where i threw such creatures right of the dungeon because it sucked )

im not a fan of implementing problems for the player that divert his mind from the (hopefully) engaging tactical and managment part of the game. i think managing the creatures shouldnt be such an easy task with some creatures hating each others etc. so that you should always have to manage them but i really dont want a DK - Sims 3 hybrid ;)
 
Jun 27, 2012
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#4
I dont think that it should actually be the goal to have everyone unhappy all the time, but perhaps there could be new things that could cause unhappiness to make it a bit harder.

And perhaps there could be smaller ways to express their anger/hatred, to portray a more tense situation where creatures seem to taunt and annoy each other somewhat before attacking. In the lair they could always attack, but I'd gues that rival creatures might fight at other places too if pressed too far.

Hatred between different types of creatures could also be expressed in different ways than attacking each other.
Some might simply become unhappy when sharing a lair with a certain creature instead of attacking them, a certain kind of mage might blast a creature they despise out of the library since they wont tolerate their presence around all that gathered knowledge, different workshop creatures might have a rivalry that makes them unable to work together and would have to work in seperate workshops, a large tough creature might be somewhat of a bully to a smaller creature, stealing their gold after payday when given the chance.
 

Saint

Priestess
Dec 28, 2012
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#5
Good points, but there has to be a good way to resolve these issues. If someone is unhappy with his lair "buddy" then there should be a way to change that creatures lair position, allowing you to even build seperate rooms for lairs of the different monsters if you fancy some micro management ( a cultist might not want to sleep near a beast that keeps a heroes corpse as a snuggy) Also a way to deal With facts, like"stealing gold". Will A slap be enough?
 

sukhonali

Chunder
WFTO Founder
Dec 19, 2011
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#6
Honestly the most annoying thing you could encounter is an unhappy creature for no obvious reasons, maybe this idea would be nice in one or two levels max but more than a couple of levels it would break my immersion imho.
 

Fireeye

Augre
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Dec 30, 2012
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#7
I agree on the fact that creatures should not be unhappy only to add some artificial difficulty. Rather than that, I would make it so that higher-level creatures will also have higher level demands and unstable moods - nothing in the range of Horny, mind you. Of course you will want to spend most of your time with slapping Imps beating the Heroes and/or other Underlords, but it is only logical to assume that (intelligent) creatures who have faithfully served you in many battles also want to get their part of the spoils, and not only in the form of regular payment.

However, I would also make this system dependent on the monster's intelligence. A minion like the beetle from DK1 obviously remain entirely content so long as it gets its food and the eventual bag of gold, but other minions like Warlocks, Vampires and so forth would very likely have higher demands than a mere bug.

PS: You might add a gameplay option to Sandbox mode that allows what DwarfFortress players call a Tantrum spiral, in which a creature essentially get so unhappy that it starts messing up other creatures' stuff, making the latter so unhappy that they do the same and creating a spiral of mayhem.
 
Dec 30, 2012
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Ironbridge
#8
Make this an option for people, I personally would hate having to solve, as previously said, domestic problems then attacking another player.

Maybe put this in a difficulty to level, everything becomes slightly harder, AI has more of an advantage, minions become unhappier faster.

Always always always make stuff a toggle/changeable option that way you can please everyone. Then when it comes to Multiplayer, you could simply have these specific options listed before you joined a game.
 
Jan 9, 2012
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#9
I think you guys missed my point. I wasn't clear enough.

When i said "unhappy" i didn't mean it, as in what it means in DK. Rather i meant unhappy as SLIGHTLY annoyed, making little nuances to the dungeons. What i didn't mean was "A creature is unhappy" ---> "A creature has left your dungeon". Of course that scenario should also still be possible, but it should, as it was in DK, be based on more important things than a simple brawl over which goblin has the sharpest teeth, and therefore have nothing to do with my suggestion.

To sum up, my suggestion is a parallel feature - more or less independent of the Stay/leave dungeon happiness system- which will add more "believable" AI for intelligent dungeon creatures. It's not like a goblin will leave his cozy dungeon home, just because that thief in the other lair stole his pay. But it will probably make him less efficient until the Underlord teaches him a lesson OR spoils him with a few extra shiny coins etc..
 

Robofish

Bard
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Dec 1, 2012
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#10
While your right it was more or less easy to keep a happy dungeon in the last 2 games, that was only if you kept things running a certain way. Other times you would be forced into certain situations, or just simply want things a certain way, where your creature variety would be different, you would operate in limited space, or have limited resources to keep your numbers content. I don't see why it should be impossible on a large level with all options available to build a perfect dungeon where your minions will want for nothing without you constantly having to fix little details yourself, even if it wont cause a mass walk out.
 

quelzoth

Priestess
WFTO Backer
Dec 31, 2012
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#11
Ideas for how Creatures could "act out" when annoyed
Theives and similar could steal things, either from the dungeon heart, the treasury, or other creatures (which would annoy said creatures)
Beasts could go on a rampage, eat as much food as it could get its hands on, or simply sulk in its lair
Spellcasters/researchers could start testing their spells on other creatures in the dungeons (most likely those weaker than themselves), or make modifications to the keeper spells (which revert once the creature is 'happy' again)
Warriors could take out their anger by dueling other creatures in the dungeon, or by making a charge at the nearest enemy dungeon.
if an imp gets unhappy, noone cares.
If a building unit (manufacturer) becomes unhappy they could sabotage traps, other units of similar type can repair them, but doing so would take longer dependant on the two creatures levels.

just somthing that came out of my head.
 

Saint

Priestess
Dec 28, 2012
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#12
Now if i see a creatire, who is unhappy and breaking my spells and traps aka sabotaging them, you know what my eresponse would be? Pain. Lots of it. Then either the sacrife option or throwing him is some dungeon hole
To rot. And die.
The idea is not bad, but the least I want is my traps stopping working(or
Spells) just because some shmuck doesn't like his lairmate. I agree there should be more of a "penalty" when. they are upset, but its"destructiveness" should be limited. When my dungeon gets invaded, trust me, i wont bother with some petty wizard and his grumpy mood, yet his "modification" of my spell could cost me the dungeon.
Furthermore, i doubt the system would take a time out when i am Attacked, so monaters will get upset(becausethey are attacked) and start causing havoc by themselves while the enemy is storming my heart.
Unless the system would just stop, when i am attacked, as in the monsters have other things to do then complain, while heroes storm your dungeon.
 

quelzoth

Priestess
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Dec 31, 2012
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#13
well there could be a counterbalancing trait, maybe fear, which would increase depending on the situation.
This would mean that the creatures only act out if they are not sufficiently terrified of their overlord, and if they are not currently under attack.
Fear could be increased by torturing creatures, slapping creatures (not as effective as torturing), having creatures fight off invaders, or similar.
 
Jan 2, 2013
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#14
sounds very nice, as long as the creatures doesnt kill each other the winner can take all and go happy away while the loser is really sad, so that you can simply just choose to completely ignore it without it making your dungeon "weaker".
forced babysitting is bad, so would need to be something like that
 

Sapphire

Firebreather
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Jan 4, 2013
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#15
It seems like an interesting concept. Though in DK1&2, the only ways to deal with unhappiness either came at a cost, risk, or just something that was almost annoying to do.

- For example, creature 1 doesn't like to have its lair near creature 2.
The solution to the problem was to either create an entirely seperate lair for it to nest in, or to somehow force the creature to create its nest on the opposite side of your main lair.

- Another example, a creature is unhappy that it missed the payday, or it doesn't get paid enough.
The solution is naturally drop some gold on it, thus costing you more gold.

Then there is the possible solution of slapping the creature for whatever is going on, but it runs the risk of pissing them off more, rather than just forcing them into submission.


What I'd like to suggest is that there be an additional mechanic to this that would allow you to control the unhappiness of your minions, but also have the potential of benefitting you and your dungeon in some form or another. Like perhaps a Troll is stressed because of him sharing a lair with another creature he doesn't like, so he goes and works on manufacturing some traps to temporarily forget his stress. Or perhaps a Black Knight is pissed off that he missed the payday, so you can send him into battle against some heroes where he has someone to take out his frustrations on (perhaps attack with increased strength/viciousness).
 
#16
I think its a pretty sweet concept :)

Am I right on thinking this would result in some sort of buff / debuff system depending on creature happiness?

It would certainly be an interesting idea to have an unhappy creature produce a buff that the player may consider beneficial.
If you're an evil keeper you wouldn't really want your minions to be truly happy anyway right? :p
 

Sapphire

Firebreather
WFTO Founder
Jan 4, 2013
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#17
Yeah, that's another thing I was really thinking on. If we're evil, why should we be focused entirely on satisfying and pleasing our minions? Let's be evil and reap some sort of malefic benefit from it.
 
#18
Perhaps causing misery could benefit the player directly, almost like a resource. Causing grief and misery could make you more powerful and consequently your spells more devastating/beneficial?

Having both magical and military might would be a balancing act as your creatures might walk out on you if they are pushed to the limit. Some levels might require magical superiority so learning to juggle/manipulate your minions happiness would be a whole new area to manage.
 
Jun 27, 2012
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#19
Might be nice if you could have creatures around that dont take any crap from slackers and straighten them out. It could make them unpopular with other creatures though, and if they piss off enough creatures they might gang up against this authority.
 

Saint

Priestess
Dec 28, 2012
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#20
A similar concept was made in an other game(stronghold crusader) where if you bought "cosmetic" items such as parks, benches , playgrounds etc people were more happy, but less productive(happiness meant more ppl in your keep, also allowed to counter balance issues as lack of food, which caused unhappiness) and if you built cosmetic items such as heads on spikes, gallows etc people were less happy, but very productive( with max production output up to 200proc).

So why not a similiar mechanic here. You could be ruthless and gain certain benefits, or "goody goody" and reap a different form of benefit aswell.
 
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