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Need optional exemptions creatures - from the general collection of the flag (Rally).

Discussion in 'Suggestion Archive' started by Ontos, Feb 6, 2016.

  1. Ontos
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    Ontos Cultist

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    [​IMG]


    Need optional exemptions creatures - from the general collection of the flag.
    The game has a flag that gathers all the creatures to attack in the selected location. But it is often useful to leave some troops - cultists - explore sins succubi - to entice the enemy creatures.

    Therefore, please make option "Minus", through which can be removed from the common flag of some creatures.
    A separate flag (1, 2, ...) is not suitable, as
    1) Select all those who have to go on the attack - longer than those who must stay, must stay just 2 - 4 being.
    2) Being die and new (from the portal, beast den). New creatures do not join the flag №1.
    Just. Make. Deleting. Selected beings. Out of the total collection of the flag (Rally). With the ability to, delete removed.
     
  2. Ontos
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    Ontos Cultist

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    Example. This map is at each Underlord 4 masters of torture. They should not be sent to an attack - if they die, will stop any possibility of getting new intelligent beings. Here they can only be obtained through torture. A new torture cases masters - will not.
     
  3. Slichizard
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    Slichizard Bard

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    Game suggests Warbands for this. Sadly they are very inconvenient, non-user friendly and require constant check-up and update.

    Rally--all flag still overrides warbands, so when you will use it in your attack/defense, your warbands become useless.

    Devs don't seem to be interested in tweaking this and think it is fine as it is. I can only hope one day they will reconsider this system and make it more useful.
     
  4. Ontos
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    Ontos Cultist

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    I (using an online translator, because I know English is bad) understand that you have other difficulty with the flags. Poor total compatibility flag and flags with the number. I do not add to it, numbered flags seldom. But common flag with the exception of beings who have to work, not to fight - it's really useful.
     
  5. Nutter
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    Nutter Inquisitor Founder

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    This is what the warbands system is intended for, creating groups specifically as the player wants. The Rally All flag is exactly that, a flag which rallies everything.
     
  6. Ontos
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    Ontos Cultist

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    I beg you not to write in my themes.
    You did not write anything useful. 0.
    This is clear even mentally retarded, that "The Rally All flag" is now gathering all the fighters.
    And what can be done with a number of flags, which collect the relevant units.
    What is this to anyone - the news?
    Why do you read selectively, but not completely, including the part of the text, which I clearly described the inability to fulfill the goal of "Send in the battle of all, including the new ones, except for certain things"?

    P.S. Maybe we should close the forum thread "Suggestions", as unnecessary? After Nutter each time any proposal seeks to show how the game works now, or neglecting the idea that the game can be changed, or perceiving the idea as something heretical.
     
  7. Nutter
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    Nutter Inquisitor Founder

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    I'm the voice of reason who explains why a particular thing works how it does, or how an existing feature of the game makes the suggestion unnecessary. You don't like having to micromanage your creatures, well that's part of the game.. just like payday or having to feed your minions, and we don't remove those parts of the game just because they're annoying/bits people don't like.

    I'm not saying the game cannot be changed, or your suggestions are "heretical", but this is a forum for discussion and if your ideas cannot stand up to being discussed without falling apart they aren't very good ideas.

    But let me put this simply so there's no translation problems:

    Why should the devs spend time and resources adding this suggestion/feature, when we already have the warbands feature that does the exact same thing, and will allow the exact same result? That is the question I am asking you to answer here, to prove your idea is a good one.

    I'm only asking the same questions that the devs ask themselves when they look at an idea, and I should know.. I get plenty of my own ideas/suggestions shot down all the time.
     
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  8. Ontos
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    Ontos Cultist

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    • Warning Issued - Violation of forum rules 4, 5 & 6
    Thank you. I laughed. :D

    I'm in shock. Or Nutter mocks, or his mental development does not allow him to read twice written - now there is NO OPTION TO AUTOMATICALLY SEND TO ATTACK EVERYONE, INCLUDING NEW CREATURES, AND EXCLUDING CERTAIN CREATURES! Flag number does not allow you to do that. New creatures will not go to him.

    I add Nutter to ignore, because it does not respond to my arguments, though not to notice them, and imagines himself a "voice of reason", that is ridiculous, when the level of reasoning and understanding of what is written.


    I expect that this topic will write someone from the team's game, who can read and understand written.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2016
  9. Nutter
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    Nutter Inquisitor Founder

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    Of course there isn't. Because if you exclude certain creatures you're not sending EVERYONE to attack are you?

    But to (once again) prove I have no bias against you, i've pinged @Lord of Riva to come and look at the thread.
     
  10. Slichizard
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    Slichizard Bard

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    If I understand this correctly, he is speaking exactly what I believe warbands are missing right now. If you lets say put 10 gnarlings into warband 1 and send them to fight, you will have those and only those 10 gnarlings sent to combat. All other creatures will stay in your dungeon and continue doing their jobs. If some of those 10 gnarlings, lets say half, 5, die, then we will have only 5 gnarlings left in warband 1. If we won't add 5 new gnarlings manually, then we will have Warband 1 with 5 gnarlings forever. So thing is, even if new gnarlings will come out of gateway, they won't go to Warband 1 and fill it in ( since we wish to have 10 gnarlings in warband 1, right? ), which severely renders warbands ineffective, compared to similar flags, like beast flag, ember flag, vampire flag or wraith flags, where every new creature will automatically go and replenish the number of units in corresponding flags.

    I personally would love to see this thing implemented, but I have doubts devs wish to do it, even though it would make sense.

    @ OP : I understand that you suggest an option to exclude certain type of creatures from all-rally flag, so they don't participate in fight when this flag is used. What Nutter said is game allows you do what you say with Warbands if you manually add all creatures you want to fight into warband and use it instead of all-rally flag. Unfortunately, as you pointed and I elaborated, new creatures won't follow warband and will have to be manually re-added, which is quite troublesome and might be too time-consuming as you will have to re-add everyone again and again. This is what makes Warbands unattractive to me as well, yet all I hear from devs is that this system is fine. Well, perhaps devs simply have no time for that right now.
     
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  11. Nutter
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    Nutter Inquisitor Founder

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    The problem is slich (and you know it's a weird day when you and me are the reasonable ones in a thread!), is knowing whether or not to add the newly spawned gnarlings to your warband.

    Let's use a ingame example to show you the issue im trying to highlight:

    • Player wants to send their group of gnarlings into battle.
    • They created Warband 1, and add their 10 gnarlings to the warband (for the sake of the example let's say these gnarlings are all level 5 after having trained a while)
    • The warband gets rallied and starts fighting as normal... Maybe some of those gnarlings die, maybe they don't.. not important for now.
    • A new (level 1) gnarling spawns from the player's gateway.

    Now this is where the problems start, because now what happens to that new gnarling?

    Option 1: The new gnarling gets (automatically) added to warband 1, and goes to join the fighting, but because he's a level 1 he's not as strong as the others and might die and therefore be wasted.
    Option 2: He makes his lair, then goes and starts training (or whatever other job he'd normally do) and gets stronger by leveling up.

    Now I can see valid/good reasons for either of those options, and you can't automatically do both. If we made units get auto added to player made warbands, we'd have players who had to manually remove them again (because they wanted option 2 and wanted to train up the gnarling before sending him into battle)

    So the only real way to satisfy both options (or arguably satisfy neither option) fairly, is by doing neither and the player manually adds the new gnarling to a warband if he wants it in a warband, which is how we have it now.

    And that's just for a simple example, what if you've split your army into 2 warbands (or you have a warband and the rally all flag), which flag should the new gnarling go to then? What if you had 2 warbands containing gnarlings.

    To me what it sounds like you actually want is more group warbands like the "Rally Beasts" flag or the "Rally Titan" flag, so you could rally all your gnarlings at once just like you can for beasts. And to be honest, whilst I can see the benefit of having a flag per species/minion type and I do agree it would be useful, I can also see it's a lot of work and would take up a lot of screen space (on the UI when fully opened/extended) for something that the current system allows, just in a more manual/time consuming way.

    I'm not saying the idea is bad, i'm just saying there are lots of questions/problems that need to be addressed before it could just be added. The short version is, you can't program a game to accurately guess what every single player wants it to do and then do it for them automatically, if we could it would be a lot easier.

    ---------
    Hopefully we can now discuss this in a polite civil way, without people talking about bias. Maybe it would be beneficial to change the behaviour to auto add new units to a warband, and change the manual side to removing them again, but it's not the kind of change that can be made on a whim, so I think you'd need more support than just 2 members of the community asking for it when presumably everyone else likes it the way it is now.
     
  12. Lord of Riva
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    Lord of Riva The Lord Founder

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    Hello Ontos.

    First of all i do not appreciate the way you talk to the members of our QA team, i can see that you want to make your point but it is in no way acceptable to insult people of the Team, this includes your signature as well. Please remove the first part from it, its not necessary to show your disapproval in a mocking manner like this. Consider this a first warning.

    I can see where you are coming from, and we have debated the hence and forth all the time. Even when your topic popped up. There is no real good way to implement what you suggest without compromising the UI and the overall gameplay. We, as in the Team that talked about this, feel that the Rally mechanics are generally in a good place. The Problem with all these suggestions is that nearly everyone has a different way of playing the game. And practically all suggestions regarding these detailed game mechanics suit only a specific way of playstyle.

    There is no feasible way to make it perfect for everyone (sadly) and i have to support nutter here. As it is now it is part of the gameplay, the micromanagement of the game is a crucial part of succeeding in Multiplayer. And in my personal opinion i think its an important and fun part of the experience.

    @Sliche:

    i kinda find it strange that you would want this "auto-add" feature in the game. I have not yet seen any RTS that automatically groups units together. Even worse you may actually not want that. Since maybe you just want half of your succubi attacking with the Warband since you still want to convert some heroes. If they get auto added you have the same micromanagment as if you would add half of them manually to a Warband now. I still believe, when it comes to you, the biggest issue is that you think warbands, or rather splitting your army is worthless. So you may want, understandably, to default to auto grouping. However in my eyes that is more of a matter of Balance rather than changing the mechanics outright.


    all said and done, All i wanted to say was how its looking now. There may be changes in the future, wouldnt be the first time, but you shouldnt hold your breath.
     
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  13. Slichizard
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    My suggestion is for warband simplification and self-maintain, so player doesn't have to worry about managing each. Just imagine having all those 5 warbands filled with different type of creatures - it's simply impossible to remember who goes where and when.

    So rather than have so much hassle managing warbands ( especially in later phase of the game ), I propose this change as it would make Warbands easier to use.

    If player will have a need to re-manage Warband, he can always ''kick'' unit out of the warband, thus the number of all units in warband will decrease. Simply speaking, if player wants Warband 1 have 10 gnarlings, then it will have 10 gnarlings, even if some died before.
     
  14. Nutter
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    Nutter Inquisitor Founder

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    Interesting, so what you're suggesting is.. rather than assign the actual units to a warband, you'd assign X number of units to the warband and the game would add them automatically if they existed (i,e pick the closest 10 of that type and add them) then keep adding them to try and keep that warband meeting your target/assigned numbers.

    I'm not sure that's feasible or easy to do, but it's definitely an interesting suggestion...
     
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  15. Slichizard
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    Slichizard Bard

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    Yes. This would allow players build different kind of warbands, lets say warband 1 full of tanky melee units while warband 2 is full of range or supports.
     
  16. Nutter
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    Nutter Inquisitor Founder

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    Me and v0id were discussing warband management earlier (due to this thread), and your proposed solution is better than what we came up with (in my opinion), like I said.. No idea how easy it would be to do, or if it's even possible.. but i'll ask him for his opinion.
     
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