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New Hero: Huscarl.

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Jun 27, 2012
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#1
Name Huscarl.

Preface Considering how many creatures of folklore come from Scandinavian mythology, it seems only fitting to have a hero from that region as well to fight them in the dungeons.

Appearance image:


Stats: Average.

Health: High.
Armor: Medium.
Movement Speed: Average.
Attack strength: above average.
Attack speed: above average.
Intelligence: low.
Construction: average.
Training Rate: fast.
Training Cost: average.
Wage: average.
Gender: man.

Skills: level 1 melee, level 3 furious strike. (powerfull attack that can cause bleeding damage.), level 6 rallying call. (uses horn to alert nearby allies and boost morale for a moment), level 9 speed, level 10 taunt. (bashes his shield and axe together to get enemies to attack him.)

Weaknesses/Resistances: very resistant against ice attacks, cannot be frozen, resistant to blunt attacks.
Weak against poison.

Information: (Basically, describe your unit here. Tell us what makes your creature notable.)

Appearance: Armed with a painted wooden shield and hand axe and wearing chainmail armor with a nordic helmet, the Huscarl is a strong man of average height and with a braided blonde beard.
At his belt he carries a dagger.

Behavior in Dungeon: (When idle, what does your Unit do? Also has typical behavior, such as things it tends to do and what kind of creatures it hangs out with, and to what types of rooms it goes.)

Battle Style: Agressive attacker with decent defence. Fiercely protects leader heroes, attacking anyone who strikes at the leader hero is his first priority. His rallying call ability makes him a good guardsman.
Often shouts agressively while attacking with a booming voice.

Jobs: training is first priority, guard duty second.

Loves: Killing enemies, training, gold, fellow Huscarls, drinking at taverns.

Hates: Trolls. Most common creature from scandinavian folklore, it makes for a good sworn enemy.

Anger reaction: Goes drinking in the tavern, steals gold and finally leaves.

Lair: Wooden bed with fine craftsmanship on the wood, and several thick furs laying over it as a blanket.

Obtainable By: Hero who requires conversion.

Attracted by: If a hero dungeon can be played, he'd be attracted by the training room or guard room.


How Introduced: In levels with a cold dungeon if they are included they could always have a strong presence, they could be introduced when guarding the lord of a land.

Entrance Effect: [OPTIONAL] Blows on his battle horn as he walks into the dungeon, making a different sound than when using the rally ability.

Torture: [OPTIONAL] Burns him with heated steel.

Advisor Quotes: [OPTIONAL] Here you face the Husarls, brave warriors from the North who seek to gain glory in battle.
 
Jun 6, 2012
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#2
A similar unit has already been discussed, and seemingly semi-confirmed: http://subterraneangames.com/threads/what-creatures-are-confirmed-to-be-in-wfto.69/#post-775

However, I don't believe it's been suggested in any great detail yet, so there's certainly no harm in posting this. I'm personally quite fond of the affinity for the ice & cold and 'defender of the leader' battle style. I also quite like the Rallying Call horn ability: from it's description, I presume it's acting as a miniature Call-to-Arms, bringing any allies within range (but not necessarily close enough to be involved in the battle yet) scurrying to his side? If so, I think that'd make a very interesting ability to tag onto a creature as a learned skill.
 
Jun 27, 2012
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#3
Good to know, hopefully the suggestion will be usefull to the team then.

The benefit of a huscarl over a viking warrior is that it's less associated with pagans, making it easier to place him with clearly christian units such as monks, templars and other likely heroes that want to destroy evil, but still allows the hero to be perceived as a viking warrior in other levels.
 
Jan 22, 2012
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#4
Well i like that someone is trying to revive this forum

Add utility skill [probably this section will be in all of your suggestions XD]

Maybe he is not hindered by water while walking ?
Maybe he destroys rooms quicker and gives Underlord gold ? [good connection to vikings raids :) ]

Also with skills try to not make generic ones. Try to add something spicy to them. He is a warrior but he can channel thor's power so some lightning/ice skills are welcomed here :p



Also monks are not really considered christian in fantasy universes :p
 
Jun 27, 2012
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#5
I'd rather not make him magical, personly I prefer a more medieval approach like whats done in the first Dungeon Keeper, but with magic tuned down a bit like in DK2, with not much magical abilities for heroes like this.

Regarding utility skills, thats kind of hard to write down at this point with so little of the game being known yet. Not much of that was happening in the DK games aside from very rare exeptions. Maybe he could boost the training speed of others in the training room, encouraging them.
 
Jan 22, 2012
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#6
Well you can just add magical skills as possible skills for him.
When i try to make suggestions i just add skills that coud be implemented and are quite fitting to certain stereotype. I also do not assign them to any levels we never know if abbility we wanted to be later will be moved earlier and vice versa. [look up loremaster]

Also i don't think going for strictly medieval approach would be good in a setting where creatures made out of blood are freely walking in dungeons :p
 
Jun 6, 2012
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#7
Not every unit needs to have magical abilities. That's one of the things I disliked about Dungeon Keeper - most of your units, even the physical fighters, would learn magic skills for no apparent reason. Skeletons with Lightning, for example. Why? Not every unit in the game has to be a Wizard. Physical, weapon-wielding combat should be just as effective and have as wide a variety of skills attached to it. I quite like the Huscarl's abilities the way they are: they might not be the most fascinating, but they're an effective combination and appropriate to the Unit.
 
Jan 22, 2012
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#8
DK series had a problem with a number of spells.
A lot of creatures shared the same spell and for some of them it was forced on like you said.
However in this game hopefully every creature have it's signature move and no creature shares the same skill.
So no more heal speed and lightning on everyone.
That could make some room for few magical skills like flame sword slashes, some holy bolts vs undead, vikings invoking thor's lightning or Ymir's cold into their weapons.
We must bear in mind that with multiple damage types we must use them and create scenarios where creatures do good variation of damage types.

Also magic =! divine abbility =! martial technique :p
 
Jun 6, 2012
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#9
I agree (although to say no unit would ever share the same skill as another unit is probably inaccurate... that's a whole lot of programming, not all of it strictly necessary). However, my point remains - there's still no reason to give every Unit access to magic. You can create equally interesting abilities, with varied damage delivery, other effects, animations and whatnot, that don't revolve around magic. Physical combat can be interesting and diverse as well, and some Units - such as the Huscarl - don't strike me as magic-users at all. They're chainmail-and-axe warriors - seeing them summoning the powers of the Gods and casting glacial bolts at their foes just makes them seem like Ice Wizards, which I really wouldn't want.
 
Likes: Meshuggly
Jan 22, 2012
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#11
Look at juggernaut. I did not seen any magical abbility there so we will certainly not have any magic skills on every hero.
Maybe i should have said it this way:

Let's note here that he could do some type of elemental dmg, either be it just plain frost on his weapon, a lightning smash that rips heads off, or thunderous roar from his horn. Just in case that Devs need a creature that gives that type of dmg.

Nothing is harmless in doing that and if dev's overdo those abilitties in beta/alfa we could just go to them with pitchforks and torches :D


does this remind anyone else of skyrim
It is more similar to M&B for me. (Nords are meh but their javelins and shields are usefull sometimes :p )
 
Jun 6, 2012
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#12
Yeah, I see what you're saying, and I know you're only posing it as a suggestion, not as something that's required. But tbh, if the Devs require more Units that deal magic damage, the sensible thing IMO would be to pitch concepts for magic-using creatures, not arbitrarily tag magic abilities onto a physical unit - or, like I say, you risk ending up with Skeletons again. Melee sword fighters, who, at high levels, sudden gain the ability to summon lightning? It didn't fit. I don't think magic would particularly fit the Huscarl either. Of course, some units (for variety's sake) should mix magic and melee. I'm thinking along the lines of a Paladin, for example. In that instance, magic abilities are justified - they fit the unit. But I really don't think magic fits a Huscarl or similar primitive weapon fighter.

That doesn't prohibit any any non-blunt/slash damage - melee abilities can inflict different damage types too. You could have a melee attack that inflicts frost damage, for example. That's not too hard to believe. But an ability that directly imbues greater magic damage to attacks, or throwing ice bolts or whatever - I think that strains the idea of what this particular Unit actually is. Ideally, you want some Units who specialise purely in magic, some Units who specialise purely in melee combat, and some Units who bring a mixture of both. But certain Unit concepts - such as the Scandinavian 'Viking' archetype - seem ideal for different roles. A unit such as this is a melee fighter IMO, through-and-through.

It'd be like giving a sword and shield to a Wizard. It doesn't really fit. But I'll stop discussing this now, because I think I'm taking this thread off on an unnecessary tangent. Point is though, some units don't really feel like they should wield magic. I wouldn't want a Thief that wields magic, I wouldn't want a Wizard that wields swords, and the same applies here.
 
Jan 22, 2012
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#13
That is partially what i meant

Just a slash that deals frost instead of physical
A stab with lightning instead of piercing
Noone said that they were things like summon hailstorm or create pillars of ice flowers :p

I also did not stated that pure warrior types (i think about Knight/Warrior/Bandit) should deal magic.
But for a wiking that could be linked to northern climate/gods some elemental abilities could be justified.

And by a abbility i mean things ranging from just simple slash -> Armageddon.


Also heroes gaining suddenly magical skills is justified in fantasy settings because heroes become stupidly powerfull on higher levels don't ya think :p [and as far as i know WftO will be located in fantasy setting ]
 
Jun 6, 2012
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#14
That's fair enough. From your previous comment, I'd interpreted it as if they had an ability that directly changed the type of damage they'd inflict with their weapons, which all seems a bit too magical. Doing a % of frost damage as default (or having one specific ability that inflicts chill) is more reasonable. And tbh, I perceive a Huscarl as a warrior just like a Knight. Just because they're from Scandinavia doesn't mean they need to be divine or elemental-based to associate with the Scandinavian Gods. Bandits come from the same kingdom as Monks and Priestesses, but they're not associated to religion the same way a Monk or Priestess is. Any culture has it's own Gods, but that's not to say any unit from that cultural region needs to have such strong ties to said Gods. When I think of Vikings, I don't tend to think of them praying much - more jumping off boats holding axes, running into villages to destroy and pillage.

And as far as Heroes suddenly gaining magic being justified? Like most things it's a matter of opinion, but I really don't think it is justified, no. If you have magic abilities, your magic abilities should be getting stronger as you level up. If you're a melee fighter, your melee abilities should be getting stronger as you level up. You can still be powerful without being given moves that don't fit your style. Giving a variety of non-magic users strong magic attacks at high levels just to make them seem more powerful is just silly. I can't believe how many times I've had to bring it up, but... Skeletons. The epitome of why it's non-sensical to give magic to a melee fighter just to make it seem stronger. A highly powerful melee attack would have served the same purpose whilst staying true to the unit.
 
Jan 22, 2012
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#15
We have separate point of view then because when i think about wikings i am thinking about sons of Odin/Thor and in a lesser extent normal warriors [too much nordic mythology i assume ] :p

I already stated that skeletons are dumb idea don't be so connected to them :p

I also said that they might not gain magical skills.
Their techniue could improve so greately that the afterslash can produce flame or ice.
Or their connection with gods become so strong that they can manifest a fraction of god power.
Let's don't be focused that everythhing runs on magic ok :)
 
Jun 6, 2012
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#16
I already stated that skeletons are dumb idea don't be so connected to them :p
Haha. Trust me, I'm not. I just think they serve as a good example (or horrible warning) for what I'm trying to convey.

I also said that they might not gain magical skills.
Their techniue could improve so greately that the afterslash can produce flame or ice.
Or their connection with gods become so strong that they can manifest a fraction of god power.
Let's don't be focused that everythhing runs on magic ok :)
I know you did. I'm just saying why I don't think they should gain magic, since you're suggesting it should at least be strongly considered. Obviously we have very different ideas. I'm more like Rhalius, in the regard that I think the magic should be toned down in WftO (obviously it still needs to be there, but it shouldn't be something the majority of units have access to in some form or another and it certainly shouldn't feel it's a necessary for a unit to be truly powerful). You seem more focused on magic than me.
 
Jun 27, 2012
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#17
Almost every game these days that is medieval fantasy seems way too liberal with magic for my taste. If theres less magic, the magic that is there gets a more special role where it can better be appreciated.

I'll make sure to pitch some ideas for magic users as well, but pretty much all my ideas will likely revolve more about classical fantasy mixed with medieval, pretty much creatures, classes and such that would fit into the art style of the original dungeon keeper.
 
Jun 27, 2012
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#19
All unnatural effects that are impossible in real life. Imbueing a sword with fire is magic, healing is magic, shooting lightning is magic, breathing fire isnt magic, a poison spell is magic but a poison dart or poison grenade is not, etc.
 
Jan 22, 2012
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#20
If watchman thinks the same then the main point in the discussion between us is because things that you think are magic are unnatural things, which i divide into:
Magic: L-bolt, fireballs, icebolts etc.
Divine powers: heals buffs.
Martial skills Fame slashes, earth slicing etc

Basically as generic fantasy setting i think it should include plenty of things you guys call magic but for me it is not magic.
And by generic and the most overused setting od "normal fantasy" i mean Forgotten Realms/Greyhawk
where there is a lot of my magic used by mages, divine wonders for priests, and skills for warriors


If you stated that you don't want it to have a lot of your magic then fights might become boring. Because watching plain guys wearing pieces of steel on them is just boring. Being one of the participants of battle is in that case the most exciting thing.
Also removing your magic from meele warriors could make many of them utterly similar because in broad view they are all the same. Throwing some (your) magical stuff for them makes watching battles more enjoyable. I'm not saying we have to throw everything for them. Easily just 1 nice looking yur magical ability could make it much more enjoyable to watch


Few examples:

M&B: Watching fights is booooooring, but because you are given active role in a fight the battles become much more enjoyable
MedTotWar: Also just looking at knights bashing themselves with swords is boring, but because you have active control of their actions it is suddenly enjoyable!
DK2: fights of meele units in that game are boring and long, was there anyone who liked them or enjoyed looking at duels in arena? I just sat there hoping that none of my units becomes uncouncious before level 8 :/
Also because you can't have direct controll over your units you just sit there and spam heal/lightning on whoever you peases.


WftO: Juggernaut has solid fantasy look for him, his skills (shockwave) give him distinctive smashing feel.


Look now at this Huscarl ? What does he do other than throwing something useless, punch enemy into kidney and blow something that gives no visible advantage ?


My point then is, unless your suggestion have some utterly distinctive feel about it like some kind of ability then it is just plain useless grey mass that heats place for possibly more awesome creature. Honestly I would never tried to convert huscarls in it's current state because i just don't have any reason to becasuse there would always be someone more usefull to fill it's place like for example crusader Rha suggested. It have 100% more usefull stuff, not only it does good at blocking passage ways thanks to block, heal and aura but also because it is clearly stated what it is supposed to do with his skills. Unlike Huscarl who neither is for offence neither defence.

In short: Some kind of your magic needs to be implemented maybe in form of my techniques to make meele warriors distinctive and enjoyable to work, kill and have in dungeon.
 
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