• This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn more.

[Other] Various ideas based on recent DK2 playthrough

Status
Not open for further replies.

Mozared

Juggernaut
WFTO Founder
Feb 17, 2013
1,132
836
520
29
#1
Hello again folks!

As per Simburgur's suggestion in https://subterraneangames.com/threads/participation.2576/]this[/url] thread, I figured I'd try a different approach to posting ideas. I've recently managed to get Dungeon Keeper 2 working on my PC again (which was quite the effort - if anybody else is having problems with this and wants help, toss me a PM), and I figured I'd create a thread with various thoughts that I had while playing the game that I wish Bullfrog expanded upon back then. So instead of one carefully explained idea (of which we, tbh, seem to have more than enough here), this is going to be a list of small notes the developers may or may not find interesting to mull over. Note that this thread will be a bit of a 'bank of ideas' in that sense, so literally every piece I write here should be read ending in a "do with that what you want...". I'm guessing the thread's a WIP, so I'll be adding more stuff as I play the game some more over the next few days. That said, without further ado...

-A variant of Imps: I realized the other day that converted Dwarves in DK2 have a lair and such, but fulfill the functions of Imps rather than being strong fighters. They work slower than traditional Imps but in turn are far better at these 'border wars' that sometimes occur between various' Keepers' Imps. I realize WFTO has Dwarves, but I thought the concept of the 'note-quite-Imp' may be be interesting to the devs. A spell that summons 10 timed-life 1 HP Imps for temporary fast tunneling? A higher level minion that fulfills (some?) Imp functions at a slower/faster rate?

-The Combat Pit: I'm not sure to what extend you're implementing this concept. I read about the Barracks not being able to max out creatures, so there's that. I don't know whether you will stick to this 'active participation' system that requires the keeper to manually toss creatures into the pit to train them (and check back there every so often to heal them up, if he wants optimal results), though I will say this: don't penalize the player so strongly for forgetting to check on his Pit. In DK2, I've lost several higher level Warlocks and Dark Elves simply because they suck at the free for all combat the Combat Pit works with and faint in no time. At the same time, the Imp AI is sometimes so stupid that they ignore these fallen Combat Pit combatants, causing them to die before being returned to their Lairs. Obviously this may not have been intended by Bullfrog, but I feel the need to point out that outright losing minions to a relatively arbitrary mechanic simply isn't fun.

-The Library requires quietness: I can't say if this phenomenon was a feature of DK2 or DK1 anymore, but in one (maybe both) of the games, placing the Library next to a noisy room like the Training Rooms or the Workshop would cause the Warlocks to complain about the noise. In DK1, this was even more problematic when Imps passed through the Library to digsites and the Warlocks started fireballing them. In the previous bit I mentioned trivial mechanics. I reckon they are ok if they are easily dealt with and give the game some more depth. I also liked the DK1 mechanics were some minions got into fights with eachother when put in the same Lair (flies & spiders anyone?). DK2 tried to handle this differently by making the involved mobs unhappy instead of sending them into huge fights. While this sounds better on paper, it was worse in reality because it seems REALLY hard to get rid of this type of unhappiness in the game. To cut this lengthy story cut: mechanics like these could be really interesting if the player has decent means to fix them. Fights between minions could work as long as they literally end when you place one of the minion types in a different lair, and they shouldn't continue simply because a fly happens to pass over the spider's lair.

-Demon Spawn has evolved into Dragon! Not sure how much I have to say about this, but it's here more as a reminder 'in case you forgot'. DK1 has one minion that, upon reaching level 10, evolved into a new, stronger type of minion level 1. This mechanic was awesome. DK2 did away with it (with good reason, reaching a minion level 10 in DK2 was way harder than in DK1), but the concept's there. I'd love being able to 'grow' one or two of my minions into better minions. It's even more interesting if that's the only way to attain said minion (as being able to attract Dragons directly in DK1 made the mechanic pointless past campaign level 12 or so).

-Some DK1 minions gain experience while sleeping next to specific tiles. I literally only just found this out when looking up the name of the Demon Spawn on the DK wiki. Apparently Dragons gain xp while sleeping if their lair is next to lava. That is one interesting little touch.

That'll be it for now - more later as I think of it.
 
Likes: Kinson

Enjou

Ember Demon
WFTO Backer
Jan 10, 2012
1,315
785
545
35
#2
-The Combat Pit: I'm not sure to what extend you're implementing this concept. I read about the Barracks not being able to max out creatures, so there's that. I don't know whether you will stick to this 'active participation' system that requires the keeper to manually toss creatures into the pit to train them (and check back there every so often to heal them up, if he wants optimal results), though I will say this: don't penalize the player so strongly for forgetting to check on his Pit. In DK2, I've lost several higher level Warlocks and Dark Elves simply because they suck at the free for all combat the Combat Pit works with and faint in no time. At the same time, the Imp AI is sometimes so stupid that they ignore these fallen Combat Pit combatants, causing them to die before being returned to their Lairs. Obviously this may not have been intended by Bullfrog, but I feel the need to point out that outright losing minions to a relatively arbitrary mechanic simply isn't fun
The combat pit in DK2 requires some babysitting if you don't want to lose units, since you need imps to drag off the bodies. Time wise I found it more effective to put only minions of the same kind in the pit whenever possible, especially with the more squishy ones like warlocks - this would prevent them from dying overly quick. That and healing them... a lot. It would be nice if we didn't have to babysit whatever the combat pit equivalent might be.

-The Library requires quietness:
I think some degree of dungeon efficiency should definitely be implemented. If you've got a lot of unrelated foot traffic going through some rooms they would lose efficiency. The Archive would definitely be a room that should also have a boost if it's relatively quiet, and investing in a door would be helpful for this.

-Demon Spawn has evolved into Dragon! Not sure how much I have to say about this, but it's here more as a reminder 'in case you forgot'. DK1 has one minion that, upon reaching level 10, evolved into a new, stronger type of minion level 1. This mechanic was awesome. DK2 did away with it (with good reason, reaching a minion level 10 in DK2 was way harder than in DK1), but the concept's there. I'd love being able to 'grow' one or two of my minions into better minions. It's even more interesting if that's the only way to attain said minion (as being able to attract Dragons directly in DK1 made the mechanic pointless past campaign level 12 or so).
I don't think this would work well for WFTO. Unlike in DK1 and DK2 each unit is going to have a much more defined role both in the dungeon and on the battlefield, so a level 10 unit kind of needs to stay as what it is. Many units will change as they level up though - they will purchase upgraded equipment and whatnot.

-Some DK1 minions gain experience while sleeping next to specific tiles.
The warlocks also apparently would gain xp if sleeping next to the library, IIRC, but who would design their rooms in that way? Personally I don't like this mechanic - it often requires you sacrifice of good dungeon design for xp gain on a handful of units. Also, gaining XP while sleeping just doesn't make sense in general.
 
Likes: Moreum

Castigator

Gargoyle
WFTO Backer
Dec 30, 2012
433
237
305
Germany
#3
On the topic of efficiency, there were many ways to make your dungeon more secure or work faster. The most important, but often overlooked was hatchery placement. Your hatchery is easier to reach for creatures, if it's placed near the training room and the workshop. The treasury should be placed, where it's not too far away, but not immediately accessible, so you could bribe your most expensive minions. And last but not least, always keep some creature traffic over your dungeon heart, to prevent assasination attempts.
I'm sure there will be room patterns, that will alow your dungeon to work more efficient in WftO. Their impact isn't that large, but noticeable. Did you find some good ideas on room placement by yourself? Most of them are dictated by common sense, but others are not very obvious and require some observation.
On the combat pit AI problem, I noticed this AI flaw myself. It wouldn't have solved the problem if imps in DKII could be turned into corpses, but at least I could have replaced the minion that way. (And vented off my frustration.)
 

Kinson

Spirit
WFTO Backer
Nov 22, 2012
23
3
130
38
Bakersfield, California
#5
I love the idea of dungeon efficiency. All rooms should have an influence on each other based on size and proximity.
This could lead to some interesting designes, like dropping a few treasury spaces into the lair, or surrounding a small Slaughter pen with a large beast pen
 

Mozared

Juggernaut
WFTO Founder
Feb 17, 2013
1,132
836
520
29
#6
The warlocks also apparently would gain xp if sleeping next to the library, IIRC, but who would design their rooms in that way? Personally I don't like this mechanic - it often requires you sacrifice of good dungeon design for xp gain on a handful of units. Also, gaining XP while sleeping just doesn't make sense in general.
I definitely don't like the idea as-is, no. It's a template for more interesting possibilities, though. Perhaps some tiles could have a tiny influence on room efficiency and such. Think along the lines of "building a Workshop next to three adjacent spots of lava adds a forge into the room that increases productivity rather than simply causing you to lose the use of the would-be wall tile".

I'm sure there will be room patterns, that will alow your dungeon to work more efficient in WftO. Their impact isn't that large, but noticeable. Did you find some good ideas on room placement by yourself? Most of them are dictated by common sense, but others are not very obvious and require some observation.
To tell you the truth, I've never really given it much thought. Though I played through both DK campaigns, I was still a lot younger when I did so and didn't really think about things as efficient building. Now that I'm re-playing the game I'm discovering it is even better than I thought. I never fully realized it succesfully mixed the 'life simulator' genre with not just RTS but also FPS. Or that it actually matters where you place your rooms, and that efficiency is yet another thing a Keeper could choose (but isn't forced) to pursue. To follow up on this;

I love the idea of dungeon efficiency. All rooms should have an influence on each other based on size and proximity.
This could lead to some interesting designes, like dropping a few treasury spaces into the lair, or surrounding a small Slaughter pen with a large beast pen
I'd love if WFTO retained a bit of this 'feature' that I've missed so far. I wouldn't like it if the efficiency on ALL rooms was based depending on their size and proximity to other rooms (this would make the game WAY too 'math-prone' and remove the fun of still simply just 'building your own dungeon'), but some things, such as 'Bile Demons' being slow and needing a nearby Hatchery to function effectively, definitely have a place within the game.
 
Jan 3, 2013
3,241
739
495
31
#8
Hello again folks!

As per Simburgur's suggestion in https://subterraneangames.com/threads/participation.2576/]this[/url] thread, I figured I'd try a different approach to posting ideas. I've recently managed to get Dungeon Keeper 2 working on my PC again (which was quite the effort - if anybody else is having problems with this and wants help, toss me a PM), and I figured I'd create a thread with various thoughts that I had while playing the game that I wish Bullfrog expanded upon back then. So instead of one carefully explained idea (of which we, tbh, seem to have more than enough here), this is going to be a list of small notes the developers may or may not find interesting to mull over. Note that this thread will be a bit of a 'bank of ideas' in that sense, so literally every piece I write here should be read ending in a "do with that what you want...". I'm guessing the thread's a WIP, so I'll be adding more stuff as I play the game some more over the next few days. That said, without further ado...

-A variant of Imps: I realized the other day that converted Dwarves in DK2 have a lair and such, but fulfill the functions of Imps rather than being strong fighters. They work slower than traditional Imps but in turn are far better at these 'border wars' that sometimes occur between various' Keepers' Imps. I realize WFTO has Dwarves, but I thought the concept of the 'note-quite-Imp' may be be interesting to the devs. A spell that summons 10 timed-life 1 HP Imps for temporary fast tunneling? A higher level minion that fulfills (some?) Imp functions at a slower/faster rate?

-The Combat Pit: I'm not sure to what extend you're implementing this concept. I read about the Barracks not being able to max out creatures, so there's that. I don't know whether you will stick to this 'active participation' system that requires the keeper to manually toss creatures into the pit to train them (and check back there every so often to heal them up, if he wants optimal results), though I will say this: don't penalize the player so strongly for forgetting to check on his Pit. In DK2, I've lost several higher level Warlocks and Dark Elves simply because they suck at the free for all combat the Combat Pit works with and faint in no time. At the same time, the Imp AI is sometimes so stupid that they ignore these fallen Combat Pit combatants, causing them to die before being returned to their Lairs. Obviously this may not have been intended by Bullfrog, but I feel the need to point out that outright losing minions to a relatively arbitrary mechanic simply isn't fun.

-The Library requires quietness: I can't say if this phenomenon was a feature of DK2 or DK1 anymore, but in one (maybe both) of the games, placing the Library next to a noisy room like the Training Rooms or the Workshop would cause the Warlocks to complain about the noise. In DK1, this was even more problematic when Imps passed through the Library to digsites and the Warlocks started fireballing them. In the previous bit I mentioned trivial mechanics. I reckon they are ok if they are easily dealt with and give the game some more depth. I also liked the DK1 mechanics were some minions got into fights with eachother when put in the same Lair (flies & spiders anyone?). DK2 tried to handle this differently by making the involved mobs unhappy instead of sending them into huge fights. While this sounds better on paper, it was worse in reality because it seems REALLY hard to get rid of this type of unhappiness in the game. To cut this lengthy story cut: mechanics like these could be really interesting if the player has decent means to fix them. Fights between minions could work as long as they literally end when you place one of the minion types in a different lair, and they shouldn't continue simply because a fly happens to pass over the spider's lair.

-Demon Spawn has evolved into Dragon! Not sure how much I have to say about this, but it's here more as a reminder 'in case you forgot'. DK1 has one minion that, upon reaching level 10, evolved into a new, stronger type of minion level 1. This mechanic was awesome. DK2 did away with it (with good reason, reaching a minion level 10 in DK2 was way harder than in DK1), but the concept's there. I'd love being able to 'grow' one or two of my minions into better minions. It's even more interesting if that's the only way to attain said minion (as being able to attract Dragons directly in DK1 made the mechanic pointless past campaign level 12 or so).

-Some DK1 minions gain experience while sleeping next to specific tiles. I literally only just found this out when looking up the name of the Demon Spawn on the DK wiki. Apparently Dragons gain xp while sleeping if their lair is next to lava. That is one interesting little touch.

That'll be it for now - more later as I think of it.
There are many possible solutions to this problem, the most optimal in my opinion is make Combat Pit autonomous, creatures could go in and pit against each other ( maybe for a price of some gold, set by player ). It will require some tweaking so only creatures of equal strength would fight against each other. Wounded creatures would leave pit themselves and go to lair for healing, this way player won't have to worry about losing focus over this room.

Rooms in DK1 had an efficiency rate ( white bar ). Having rooms connected together instead of being separated by walls reduced it a lot, making any progress in it slower. WFTO could probably have something like that, for certain rooms.

Unhappy creatures will be able to relax in brewery or any other room where they can get gold ( since many rooms are still TBA I can't say much).

WFTO seem to have similar system announced, except creature won't have it's level reduced to 1 and upgrade system will be different. I suggest you wait a little, devs will clarify it later.

It was suggested in DK1 however I personally never noticed that working myself. WFTO could have similar thing for certain rooms for certain creatures ( like Cultist in Library, Augre in Foundry and so on ) but again, since many rooms and creatures aren't even announced not much can be said about this.
 

Mozared

Juggernaut
WFTO Founder
Feb 17, 2013
1,132
836
520
29
#9
I've actually started the campaign again rather than just exploring... everything in Skirmish matches, so after about 8 levels in (+2 bonus levels) it's time for another batch of thoughts!

-The bonus levels are awesome. I had actually forgotten all about these. One makes you play 'golf' by slapping boulders into portals and another one makes you possess a Warlock on an island surrounded by lava for a round of duckshoot. It's ridiculous what the DK2 engine can actually do. This whole ordeal with bonus levels has reminded me of DK1 again as well, where one of the 'specials' you could find allowed you to bring a creature from the level you were in into the next level. I'm not a huge fan of "experience" and "leveling" your account over multiple missions or such, but these kinds of bonus missions that possibly give small boons might be an idea?

-Possessing a Dark Elf turns the game into an FPS. In the level where you unlock these creatures there's actually a bit of a 'mini-quest': a low HP Dwarf Guard is standing watch outside a door and engaging him with minions causes him to run off and bring reinforcements - the idea is to possess a Dark Elf and snipe the guard. I think WFTO had a possession spell (correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall reading about it); perhaps a similar concept could be used for some of the campaign missions? I reckon you guys can expand upon this 'mini-quest' a tiny bit and maybe add more similar (optional) quests that force the player to make creative use of possession (using a 'Bile Demon' to get past a field of Gas Traps?).

-You can attract 'elite' minions by building specific room lay-outs. For example: building a 3X3 Lair, selling the corners and replacing them with 4 Hatchery tiles (thus creating a 'cross' shaped lair with Hatchery corners) attract 'Grub', a stronger-than-usual Goblin with special looks. This only works with the 1.7 patch in Skirmish games. Though this system too wouldn't be ideal for a direct implementation (it turns every multiplayer game into a race to attract the elite Dark Angel), the concept is interesting as well. May be an idea for an easter egg or so?

That's it for now, I'm sure more will pop up as play around.
 

Medjay

Shadow
WFTO Backer
Aug 23, 2012
1,095
491
490
24
Canterbury
#10
-Possessing a Dark Elf turns the game into an FPS. In the level where you unlock these creatures there's actually a bit of a 'mini-quest': a low HP Dwarf Guard is standing watch outside a door and engaging him with minions causes him to run off and bring reinforcements - the idea is to possess a Dark Elf and snipe the guard. I think WFTO had a possession spell (correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall reading about it); perhaps a similar concept could be used for some of the campaign missions? I reckon you guys can expand upon this 'mini-quest' a tiny bit and maybe add more similar (optional) quests that force the player to make creative use of possession (using a 'Bile Demon' to get past a field of Gas Traps?).
I totally loved using DK2 as an FPS. Try going into the editor, go to creature spells, and set the dark elf shot recharge time to 0. Then, make a 2 player map and find a friend over LAN. Great FPS. Yesterday, I made my own survival map with your dungeon heart in the middle, surrounded by barricades, where 320 skeletons swarm you from all sizes. Its like DK2 Zombies (not a COD fan personally, but having it in DK2 is epic). Naturally you play as an elf with no recharge on your bow and 10000 damage per shot to make the map 'possible' to complete after about 30-50 mins practice.

Just released this rambling message has absolutely nothing to do with the thread, but it seems a shame to remove it now...so, yeah...FPS is possible as an actual DK2 game mode :D
 
Jan 3, 2013
3,241
739
495
31
#12
I've actually started the campaign again rather than just exploring... everything in Skirmish matches, so after about 8 levels in (+2 bonus levels) it's time for another batch of thoughts!

-The bonus levels are awesome. I had actually forgotten all about these. One makes you play 'golf' by slapping boulders into portals and another one makes you possess a Warlock on an island surrounded by lava for a round of duckshoot. It's ridiculous what the DK2 engine can actually do. This whole ordeal with bonus levels has reminded me of DK1 again as well, where one of the 'specials' you could find allowed you to bring a creature from the level you were in into the next level. I'm not a huge fan of "experience" and "leveling" your account over multiple missions or such, but these kinds of bonus missions that possibly give small boons might be an idea?

-Possessing a Dark Elf turns the game into an FPS. In the level where you unlock these creatures there's actually a bit of a 'mini-quest': a low HP Dwarf Guard is standing watch outside a door and engaging him with minions causes him to run off and bring reinforcements - the idea is to possess a Dark Elf and snipe the guard. I think WFTO had a possession spell (correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall reading about it); perhaps a similar concept could be used for some of the campaign missions? I reckon you guys can expand upon this 'mini-quest' a tiny bit and maybe add more similar (optional) quests that force the player to make creative use of possession (using a 'Bile Demon' to get past a field of Gas Traps?).

-You can attract 'elite' minions by building specific room lay-outs. For example: building a 3X3 Lair, selling the corners and replacing them with 4 Hatchery tiles (thus creating a 'cross' shaped lair with Hatchery corners) attract 'Grub', a stronger-than-usual Goblin with special looks. This only works with the 1.7 patch in Skirmish games. Though this system too wouldn't be ideal for a direct implementation (it turns every multiplayer game into a race to attract the elite Dark Angel), the concept is interesting as well. May be an idea for an easter egg or so?

That's it for now, I'm sure more will pop up as play around.
Didn't devs announce Moon and Bonus Levels? If not, I'm sure they will.

Ability to possess creatures can be used for mods, allowing community develop some skill-shot maps where players can compete in various missions, be it shoot the dwarf into the knee or hunt invading imps down. Inb4 team zombie survival mod.

The concept of elite creature should be reworked. It could be merged with creature upgrade system where you can upgrade your level 10 unit into it's ''improved'', special version, be it an elite or absolutely different one. I personally never liked the idea of building rooms just to get only 1 creature that could barely decide anything by itself.
 
Likes: Amon
Jan 7, 2012
446
171
340
23
#13
The concept of elite creature should be reworked. It could be merged with creature upgrade system where you can upgrade your level 10 unit into it's ''improved'', special version, be it an elite or absolutely different one. I personally never liked the idea of building rooms just to get only 1 creature that could barely decide anything by itself.
The elite Mechanic in DK2 sucked, in Multiplayer it was just about who would firstly put some lair corners into his rooms, (Well, the really big elite Rooms were ok if you played in small maps, were room size mattered)
And even in the pet dungeon it was an annoying task to build irrational rooms, just to dispatch them 5 seconds afterwards because prisons with treasure corners are ugly.

If there will be some kind of elite or upgrade mechanic (which would be cool.), it shouldnt be based on rapid clicking and obscure knowledge rather than on the kind of dungeon you have build and what creatures you are favoring- so you may not getting many elites at once.

For example If you have a dungeon with at least 10 undeads + the related rooms in a good size, the chances of recieving an elite undead at the next revieving could increase.
If you are favoring Augres and have a big forge and half full sloth tree, your next augre could be an elite.
 
#14
DK1 has one minion that, upon reaching level 10, evolved into a new, stronger type of minion level 1. This mechanic was awesome. DK2 did away with it (with good reason, reaching a minion level 10 in DK2 was way harder than in DK1), but the concept's there. I'd love being able to 'grow' one or two of my minions into better minions. It's even more interesting if that's the only way to attain said minion (as being able to attract Dragons directly in DK1 made the mechanic pointless past campaign level 12 or so).
There are a few minions that are only available via a level 10 minion + a ritual (the three upgrades to the Cultist come to mind most readily), but we certainly love the idea of a level 10 transformation on certain minions.

I'd link you to the news post where we discussed the Cultist, but I imagine it's easy to find via the "What we know" thread posted in General.


Cheers for the suggestions! We're still reading every single one ;)

<3 James.
 

Mozared

Juggernaut
WFTO Founder
Feb 17, 2013
1,132
836
520
29
#15
There is something in this thread that I like very much.
Does that mean you dislike all the other ideas? :p

I'm glad to hear it's helping. Here are some more ideas; I've just completed level 14 and got some more new thoughts.

-The Horny mechanic is interesting. You've probably already thought about this quite a bit. Horny is kind of the 'nuclear bomb' of this particular RTS, I guess. I don't really like the mechanic in DK2 - I preferred the mechanic of DK1 where he was a regular minion that required his own mini-dungeon to stay happy.

-I played through two specific missions with heaps of lava, and my rooms were pre-made islands in the middle of it. I've always thought that the occasional "everything open" map was interesting to play on in Dungeon Keeper. There was a similar map in DK1 as well, where both you and your opponent started off on a huge lava-surrounded island without any dirt on it. What would make maps like these more interesting is if we had some way to not only bridge lava, but also to make it walkable. Perhaps a higher level spell could be used for these purposes? It would make some of these more interesting "lava-with-islands" dungeons a lot more interesting.

-I freaking love sneak missions in DK2. I've only really had one so far, but another one is coming up soon (the one where you get the secret door). That mission requires the player to sneak in and take over rooms of an enemy's castle, using secret doors to prevent the silly Lord from noticing what's going on. This mission actually got me thinking about the whole earth mechanic: one thing I missed in both DK1 and DK2 is some kind of way, however elusive, to put back earth blocks. Or at least a more reliable kind of fog of war. Imagine how awesome it be if this "take over a room and then block the enemies' access to and vision of it" tactic was viable in every map - 'stealth play' would literally become a thing. Right now, in both DK1 and DK2, if you ever dig open a path to your enemy, you're going to be in battle with that enemy until either of you dies. The only way to avoid this is with DK2's secret doors, but these are often so problematic and hard to place that you can only really get one down in a good spot once you've already defeated your enemy anyway. I think the genre needs some kind of proper 'disengage'.

-Exploring is nice, too. I've actually found that over the past 14 levels it's one of the things I've most enjoyed doing. Not just 'using sight of evil', but really digging in all directions in order to find neutral creatures, specials, and what-have-you. It does feel like the reward for it is a bit meager from time to time, though. Perhaps this is a concept WFTO can expand upon as well. I'm thinking along the lines of mana vaults beneath random dirt tiles, neutral otherwise-unbuildable rooms to discover and perhaps even more one-time use spells/specials. DK2 has things like "stun all enemy imps" and "make all your creatures happy", but perhaps one-time-use (otherwise-unbuildable) traps or limited use 'bomb spells' you could throw in combat.

That's it for now. I'm nearing the end of the campaign so I'm not sure if much more will pop up, but we'll see how it goes.
 
Jan 3, 2013
3,241
739
495
31
#16
Does that mean you dislike all the other ideas? :p

I'm glad to hear it's helping. Here are some more ideas; I've just completed level 14 and got some more new thoughts.

-The Horny mechanic is interesting. You've probably already thought about this quite a bit. Horny is kind of the 'nuclear bomb' of this particular RTS, I guess. I don't really like the mechanic in DK2 - I preferred the mechanic of DK1 where he was a regular minion that required his own mini-dungeon to stay happy.

-I played through two specific missions with heaps of lava, and my rooms were pre-made islands in the middle of it. I've always thought that the occasional "everything open" map was interesting to play on in Dungeon Keeper. There was a similar map in DK1 as well, where both you and your opponent started off on a huge lava-surrounded island without any dirt on it. What would make maps like these more interesting is if we had some way to not only bridge lava, but also to make it walkable. Perhaps a higher level spell could be used for these purposes? It would make some of these more interesting "lava-with-islands" dungeons a lot more interesting.

-I freaking love sneak missions in DK2. I've only really had one so far, but another one is coming up soon (the one where you get the secret door). That mission requires the player to sneak in and take over rooms of an enemy's castle, using secret doors to prevent the silly Lord from noticing what's going on. This mission actually got me thinking about the whole earth mechanic: one thing I missed in both DK1 and DK2 is some kind of way, however elusive, to put back earth blocks. Or at least a more reliable kind of fog of war. Imagine how awesome it be if this "take over a room and then block the enemies' access to and vision of it" tactic was viable in every map - 'stealth play' would literally become a thing. Right now, in both DK1 and DK2, if you ever dig open a path to your enemy, you're going to be in battle with that enemy until either of you dies. The only way to avoid this is with DK2's secret doors, but these are often so problematic and hard to place that you can only really get one down in a good spot once you've already defeated your enemy anyway. I think the genre needs some kind of proper 'disengage'.

-Exploring is nice, too. I've actually found that over the past 14 levels it's one of the things I've most enjoyed doing. Not just 'using sight of evil', but really digging in all directions in order to find neutral creatures, specials, and what-have-you. It does feel like the reward for it is a bit meager from time to time, though. Perhaps this is a concept WFTO can expand upon as well. I'm thinking along the lines of mana vaults beneath random dirt tiles, neutral otherwise-unbuildable rooms to discover and perhaps even more one-time use spells/specials. DK2 has things like "stun all enemy imps" and "make all your creatures happy", but perhaps one-time-use (otherwise-unbuildable) traps or limited use 'bomb spells' you could throw in combat.

That's it for now. I'm nearing the end of the campaign so I'm not sure if much more will pop up, but we'll see how it goes.
DK2 Horny Mechanics were broken, but the concept itself was fine. Having an ultimate creature that can change things in one way or another is what makes new Horny special. His role in DK1 is given to DK2 Dark Angel.

Lava's job is to separate territory and players from each other. The idea of spell that could turn lava into magma platforms is meh, however magma platforms, spawning themselves for random duration could work. They would grant access for a different period of time to certain areas, then melt and re-appear somewhere else.

I'm sure in WFTO campaign, brute force will not be the only way to the goal. This implies Sneak Missions and Alternative Ways of winning the level.

Exploring is fine, game like this needs it. However, too many hidden bonuses will turn the level into digger's journey, making it quite boring for player. Moderated amount of hidden sweets on the other side can twist the gameplay and make player consider of capturing them before opponents do ( assuming WFTO AI Overlords will do so ).
 

Mozared

Juggernaut
WFTO Founder
Feb 17, 2013
1,132
836
520
29
#18
DK2 Horny Mechanics were broken, but the concept itself was fine. Having an ultimate creature that can change things in one way or another is what makes new Horny special. His role in DK1 is given to DK2 Dark Angel.

Lava's job is to separate territory and players from each other. The idea of spell that could turn lava into magma platforms is meh, however magma platforms, spawning themselves for random duration could work. They would grant access for a different period of time to certain areas, then melt and re-appear somewhere else.

I'm sure in WFTO campaign, brute force will not be the only way to the goal. This implies Sneak Missions and Alternative Ways of winning the level.

Exploring is fine, game like this needs it. However, too many hidden bonuses will turn the level into digger's journey, making it quite boring for player. Moderated amount of hidden sweets on the other side can twist the gameplay and make player consider of capturing them before opponents do ( assuming WFTO AI Overlords will do so ).
You're argueing mostly balance, though. Obviously if they chucked neutrals, specials, shrines, gold piles, special traps and special spells all into one multiplay map it'd become crazy. I'm trying to think of concepts that could be used to make exploring a bit more rewarding on its own; the bonuses don't need to be that great, but from what I've noticed in my DK2 playthrough I often found myself digging out every nook and cranny and finding nothing more than a couple of useless 'make your creatures happy' specials.

As for lava; crossing it should be a thing of its own, I definitely agree with that. What I'm proposing is more like a semi-expensive long-term solution that allows players to build a room or two in a lava map when space is often extremely limited. I'm guessing it'd be a multiplay thing.
 
Jan 3, 2013
3,241
739
495
31
#19
(S)He must have hacked her/his way into our Drive account!
Well, spilling some blood was never the best solution. Diplomacy or in some cases Deception work much better. After all, everyone has 2 things, desire and price.

You're argueing mostly balance, though. Obviously if they chucked neutrals, specials, shrines, gold piles, special traps and special spells all into one multiplay map it'd become crazy. I'm trying to think of concepts that could be used to make exploring a bit more rewarding on its own; the bonuses don't need to be that great, but from what I've noticed in my DK2 playthrough I often found myself digging out every nook and cranny and finding nothing more than a couple of useless 'make your creatures happy' specials.

As for lava; crossing it should be a thing of its own, I definitely agree with that. What I'm proposing is more like a semi-expensive long-term solution that allows players to build a room or two in a lava map when space is often extremely limited. I'm guessing it'd be a multiplay thing.
Well, exploring by itself takes player's focus, sometimes too much. Digging lots of tunnels just to find useless specials when you could instead try to attack something weak or gain more map control means you just lost the precious time. Ofcourse I don't expect a super special like level all your creatures to lvl10 or something, but it should be at least somehow rewarding. There are many ways to make exploring viable, and I'm sure WFTO devs will do things right in campaign maps.

Lava levels are generally of two types - platforms or islands. Platform levels are rather simple - huge land platforms, separated by lava. On such levels, you don't have to worry about space, if you manage things properly. Islands on the other side usually consist of small areas where players can somehow expand and prepare for journey to other ones. These kind of levels by themselves intend to make players leave their ''shell'' sooner and start exploring for gold and space where they can build some rooms. Making them too easy by putting too much land will make the level itself out of it's original concept. In other words, game doesn't need this kind of solution as limited space by itself is the part of the level and it greatly decides the way players will need to act in order to survive and win.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom