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[Other] Worshipping a specific Dark God

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Enjou

Ember Demon
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#1
So the Dark Gods are Evil with a capital E. They are the embodiment of darkness, brutality, monstrousness, and generally being not nice to others, and there are only two reasons someone would worship them - avoiding their wrath or for the benefits that come from being a favored servant of a great evil. Underlords primarily fit into the latter category. The Dark Gods are indeed great evils, and great evils don't tend to work together more than is necessary to fulfill short term mutual goals. They aren't like the Light Gods who would work together eternally for the sake of peace and harmony as one united pantheon. No, they would be eternal rivals vying for absolute control over the world. Sure, they are happy when general evil is done, but they are happiest when evil is done in their name.

As such, they would entice Underlords with benefits to worship one of them specifically. I think it would be an interesting mechanic for the game if we could choose a Dark God to worship, and doing so would provide some benefits as well as drawbacks. Here is how I envision it working:

1. Each of the Dark Gods has their own specific ideology, each having likes and dislikes. For instance, you might have one that like physical violence, but isn't so keen on magic. Another might be associated with death and the undead, and as such isn't fond of the living. There would be various other themes for them to have - lust, plagues and vermin, fire, gluttony, etc.

2. When you've unlocked enough of the Veins of Evil, the Dark Gods will start being interested into recruiting you for their cause, giving you the option to pick one to worship. Some of them may be associated with specific Veins, so worshiping those ones may require unlocking enough of a specific Vein of Evil, while others would be general all-rounders and only require a certain number of techs to be unlocked. For example, a fire deity would be associated with Wrath, a lust deity with Greed, and a gluttony one with Sloth. On the other hand, a deity of the undead or one of plagues and vermin might not be associated with a specific Vein. I'm thinking there should be two for each Vein, and three independent of specific Veins, for a total of nine. Once you have a deity's attention, you can select him/her/it (some of them may be rather alien and not have a proper gender)

3. Once selected, there are benefits as well as consequences. The benefits are rather straightforward - the deity selected gives you dark blessings associated with what they represent. A fire deity would make your fire based creatures and magics more powerful, a lust one might make your succubi more powerful and speed up conversion through torture, etc. The consequences on the other hand would come from the Dark Gods you have pissed off by picking their rivals. Since each Dark God has individual dislikes, they would hate some of their rivals more than others and curse their worshipers. For example, the death and undead deity may really despise a lust deity, since lust leads to sex and more life being born into the world, so worshiping the lust deity may make the undead one affect your undead in some negative way. Whether the hatred is reciprocal depends on the nature of the deity in question, but all deities have at least one other who hates them with a passion. The blessings and curses would balance out, but it would be a good way to encourage different play styles.

4. Being backstabbing, conniving, horrible monsters ourselves, we Underlords reserve our right to betray our chosen master without any notice and decide to worship another Dark God should we decide they would be more useful to our own selfish ambitions. That's right, I'm saying that unlike other choices on the Veins of Evil this one should not be permanent. That said, betraying a Dark God is not without consequences - doing so will incur their wrath and there should be some kind of conversion penalty. Perhaps they might send a horde of hostiles through your portal to wreak havoc upon your dungeon, or perhaps it's something more specific like the fire deity making all your Ember Demons turn hostile until their next resurrection. It would be temporary, but still something that you would only want to do when you're secure enough that you can deal with it.

Of course, players wouldn't have to choose a Dark God. They could just further the general cause of the Darkness and not get involved with divine politics. Maybe you don't want the hassle and prefer independence, maybe you're not all that religious and don't care who your minions worship, or maybe you just plan on ascending to godhood yourself and don't want the attention of your future rivals on you. Whatever the case, it's a play style choice, not something mandatory.

Aesthetically, I'm thinking that if you select a deity then certain room embellishments would reflect your choice. Whatever the dark temple equivalent is might have statues that change to be one of your chosen Dark God after you've selected one, or if you haven't they are either generic statues or all of the dark pantheon is represented.
 

Nazgren

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#2
Sounds a bit like the Warhammer Chaos gods, Khorne, Nurgle Tzeentch and Slaneesh. You could worship one of the 4 or support chaos undivided, each one affect your army's looks and functionality in different ways.
 
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Lord of Riva

The Lord
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#3
it would certainly become another layout of complexity ...
my question is: how are they really different to a normal skill in the veins (there may be a skill with +25% conversion rate for succubus in the greed vein for example)
if you say they always have a trade of it could lead to lesser creature creature diversity:
for example if you have the god of the undead (who hates living things) and there are just lets say two or three different units that are undead it would lead to either killing all your others off/ dismiss them via the Portal or getting to feel the wrath of the god regularly ?
even if we say that it is not that bad having living creatures with you where is the use for the few undeads you have? and isnt it easy for an enemy player/AI to Adapt to such a Strategy (that you now have build nearly fixed?)

just a few things that came to my mind with your idea.
I actually think there is some really great Potential in this (even if dont want to see 4 clones of the Warhammer franchise :p @Nazgren)
but as always we have to see how temples(or equivalents)/the Veins etc. will be implemented.

adding this to the Mechanics Section

EDIT: somehow i feel this was already suggested somewhere ... hmnmm have to look into it
 

Nazgren

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#4
even if dont want to see 4 clones of the Warhammer franchise :p @Nazgren)
Agreed, i just wanted to name an example that has been more the successful. It might be worth raiding the create your own Underlord post for inspiration, there were some that i thought would make better Dark Gods then Underlords.
 

Noontide

Designer / Community Manager
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#5

Mozared

Juggernaut
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#7
Why not just have 3 Gods, each representing one Vein of Evil: God of Greed, God of Wrath and God of Sloth...? ;)
That's what I was thinking. I'm not entirely sure in what ways the Veins are limited, but it could become a similar system to the WoW talent trees that way - you lock yourself into a certain Vein and instantly receive a couple of bonuses that change your playstyle. You can then spend points in the Vein and once you fill it up, the remaining points can go into another Vein. You wouldn't even need to limit the player to 'filling up vein A before being able to access vein B' here, it could simply be a system of 'choose your main vein and get its instant bonuses'.
 

Enjou

Ember Demon
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#9
it would certainly become another layout of complexity ...
my question is: how are they really different to a normal skill in the veins (there may be a skill with +25% conversion rate for succubus in the greed vein for example)
The fact that the selection isn't permanent is one. Generally speaking when it comes to tech tree progression you are stuck with whatever choices you make. Here you can change it, albeit with penalties.

The second is that it comes with negative consequences. Any general selection on the Veins wouldn't likely provide anything but benefits. It's more of a gamble when you pick a god to worship - risk vs. reward calculations enter into play.

if you say they always have a trade of it could lead to lesser creature creature diversity:
for example if you have the god of the undead (who hates living things) and there are just lets say two or three different units that are undead it would lead to either killing all your others off/ dismiss them via the Portal or getting to feel the wrath of the god regularly ?
even if we say that it is not that bad having living creatures with you where is the use for the few undeads you have? and isnt it easy for an enemy player/AI to Adapt to such a Strategy (that you now have build nearly fixed?)
Your chosen deity wouldn't punish you like that - as a worshiper you are working for him/her/it, so doing so would be counterproductive. The undead god may hate the living, but he's not going to kill your units. After all, they are going to be bringing death in his name, and you are likely to use the enemies you slay to raise more undead since it would provide some benefit relating to them.

In regards to unit diversity, these could affect that as the player may want to make maximum use of whatever benefits their deity provides, but from what we've heard so far from the devs I don't think specializing in one type of unit alone will be very viable. Ultimately this is a balancing issue.

Also, the benefits may not be passives for every deity. Some might provide access to unique spells or traps that can't be accessed in other ways. Unit specialization may not be useful with every choice.


Why not just have 3 Gods, each representing one Vein of Evil: God of Greed, God of Wrath and God of Sloth...? ;)
Two reasons:

1. Lore richness - I like lots of lore, and having only three Dark Gods is somewhat limiting IMO. I'd like many gods to represent many different kinds of evil.
2. Play style variety - The player isn't limited to only one Vein of Evil. They are able to mix and match. If you only have three gods where each one is associated with a specific Vein the player would be forced to concentrate on that Vein if they want to maximize the benefits given by their divine support. By giving some options that are more rounded players aren't forced to specialize in one Vein. Also, each Vein will have different strategies as well, so you don't want there to be only one deity per Vein as it would likely encourage the use of a specific strategy.[/quote][/quote]
 
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#10
We could go Age of Mythology God system. Based on which god you decide to follow and worship your ''price'' can be either in gold or in blood, or both. This way many gods can be introduced into the game and variety of bonuses player can get from gods will be large.
 
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Medjay

Shadow
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#12
Certainly it can be said that even the concept of 'the dark gods' was very mysterious within DK2, seeing as they were only even mentioned a few times. I don't know why, but the fact the dark gods were so rarely mentioned I though made them rather cool, in that it was left to your imagination what the role of the dark gods were. A long time ago when I joined, I one of my first ideas was to have some sort of 'gods system', but then I realized that the reason I liked the idea of the dark gods so much was because they were so open to imagination. I have no real objection to the idea of having the dark gods integrated into WftO, only I feel that it was quite fun in DK2 where the dark gods had no direct influence over your dungeon but their existence was hinted at.
 
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#13
i dunno about you but i would heavily punish any creature worshiping anything other then me, i will simply believe in my own power.
In this case, no temple should be every built in the first place because not every god can be pleased.

As for gods in WFTO - as I mentioned, pick one out of two ( or you could even worship 4 gods out 8 or 12 ) and enjoy the bonuses offered. Rejecting another god(s) shouldn't put you in risk of the punishment in any way.
 
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#16
That would be what you'd expect reasonable deities to do, but do you really think Dark Gods would be reasonable beings?
Well, most likely they will be reasonable. If there are many gods and you can select one, others shouldn't punish you for your choice. If they are just savage beasts with godlike powers who can't be reasoned, they would simply kill each other long time ago, because none can be worshipped if they keep denying each other's followers and worshippers.

i am still a god to them, a temple about my self is only reasonable.

never underestimate my evil side, it will swallow you whole with just a hint of weakness.
What's the point of killing people if they refuse to worship you? Not like you can do much, other than get all the hate, or even worse.
 

Enjou

Ember Demon
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#17
Well, most likely they will be reasonable. If there are many gods and you can select one, others shouldn't punish you for your choice. If they are just savage beasts with godlike powers who can't be reasoned, they would simply kill each other long time ago, because none can be worshipped if they keep denying each other's followers and worshippers.
I'm not saying they can't be reasoned with - they are intelligent beings. But they are evil intelligent beings. They are destructive, capricious, and spiteful beings. Each one is out for world domination, and letting the power base of their rivals grow unhindered isn't going to work out well in the long run. They can't outright deny eachother worshipers, but if they have any kind of influence in the world they would be inclined to punish someone who joins up with a rival they particularly hate. Underlords are beings of power and are essentially the champions of Darkness in the world, so they would likely focus their efforts there rather than on mere cultists and lesser creatures. And let's face it - Underlords do the same thing. They seek to rule the world and will undermine and kill rival Underlords at every turn. If every Underlord worked together to fight the forces of good they likely wouldn't stand a chance, but evil beings tend to be self-centered and long term cooperation will generally only work out when a more powerful leader is coercing them into doing so. (and even then that being's lieutenants are likely plotting against eachother or to overthrow the leader or both) However, even with all the backstabbing

In regards to them destroying one another, there would be reasons why they wouldn't have. One might be that they are of roughly equal power - in this case a direct conflict would be risky. Again, they are evil, not dumb. Mutual destruction would be counterproductive. In this case if there had ever been any weaker Dark Gods they would likely have been destroyed long ago. Alternatively, perhaps they are simply in different places and they can't reach eachother for a direct conflict - each one ruling its own hell, and just as unable to cross into eachother's realms as they are into our own world.


What's the point of killing people if they refuse to worship you? Not like you can do much, other than get all the hate, or even worse.
I highly suggest you take a look at the history of real world religions. Followers of one deity or pantheon have and even today continue to kill members of other religions for their refusal to convert. What's more, the people who do that have almost always claimed that their deity is good and just and that their killing was righteous. Think on that for a second. Now, imagine a religion where the deity being worshiped is real, has some power to influence our world, and is openly embracing evil and all of its followers are sociopaths who are only in it for themselves. Do you honestly think that they would follow this paradigm you are saying they would?
 
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#18
I'm not saying they can't be reasoned with - they are intelligent beings. But they are evil intelligent beings. They are destructive, capricious, and spiteful beings. Each one is out for world domination, and letting the power base of their rivals grow unhindered isn't going to work out well in the long run. They can't outright deny eachother worshipers, but if they have any kind of influence in the world they would be inclined to punish someone who joins up with a rival they particularly hate. Underlords are beings of power and are essentially the champions of Darkness in the world, so they would likely focus their efforts there rather than on mere cultists and lesser creatures. And let's face it - Underlords do the same thing. They seek to rule the world and will undermine and kill rival Underlords at every turn. If every Underlord worked together to fight the forces of good they likely wouldn't stand a chance, but evil beings tend to be self-centered and long term cooperation will generally only work out when a more powerful leader is coercing them into doing so. (and even then that being's lieutenants are likely plotting against eachother or to overthrow the leader or both) However, even with all the backstabbing

In regards to them destroying one another, there would be reasons why they wouldn't have. One might be that they are of roughly equal power - in this case a direct conflict would be risky. Again, they are evil, not dumb. Mutual destruction would be counterproductive. In this case if there had ever been any weaker Dark Gods they would likely have been destroyed long ago. Alternatively, perhaps they are simply in different places and they can't reach eachother for a direct conflict - each one ruling its own hell, and just as unable to cross into eachother's realms as they are into our own world.




I highly suggest you take a look at the history of real world religions. Followers of one deity or pantheon have and even today continue to kill members of other religions for their refusal to convert. What's more, the people who do that have almost always claimed that their deity is good and just and that their killing was righteous. Think on that for a second. Now, imagine a religion where the deity being worshiped is real, has some power to influence our world, and is openly embracing evil and all of its followers are sociopaths who are only in it for themselves. Do you honestly think that they would follow this paradigm you are saying they would?
Again, this has nothing to do with gods punishing people who don't worship them. It's followers and worshippers who decide to punish those who don't share their views and beliefs. Gods themselves probably never care about followers and worshippers of other religion.

As for WFTO, worshipping one god should grant bonuses from that god, but no penalty from another whom you didn't choose to.
 

Lord of Riva

The Lord
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#19
Again, this has nothing to do with gods punishing people who don't worship them. It's followers and worshippers who decide to punish those who don't share their views and beliefs. Gods themselves probably never care about followers and worshippers of other religion.

As for WFTO, worshipping one god should grant bonuses from that god, but no penalty from another whom you didn't choose to.
then i have to say , its just like a normal Vein of evil skill, we wouldnt need Gods or soemthing if it is just: undead make 5% more dmg. end.

I Prefer Enjous idea here but as said before the penalties shouldnt be game breaking
 
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#20
then i have to say , its just like a normal Vein of evil skill, we wouldnt need Gods or soemthing if it is just: undead make 5% more dmg. end.

I Prefer Enjous idea here but as said before the penalties shouldnt be game breaking
Not if you can pick more than one god. Additionally you will need to please those gods by tribute at least once or maybe every X minutes. Penalties can/will be ignored if player selects god(s) that match his current Vein build and creature types.
 
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