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Patch 1.3 Now Available!

Jan 3, 2013
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#5
Lets see :

New maps - huge plus.

Balance & bug fixes - plus.

Map editor - huge plus.

However there's a huge minus left to deal with - outdated Bots. The aggression tweak may actually be a backfire since without defensive tactics ( logs don't point out anything about any specific tweaks to AI ) it may make bots even weaker since they don't know anything else. Tbh, you guys should had left bots completely untouched for this patch - there's more to do than just have them ''tamed'' a bit.

Haven't tried MP yet, but I guess it's still arrange-only. I guess I'll just ''try'' those new maps out, they seem to look good ( though I'm not sure of some super large ones, I feel like they are un-necessarily big ), but hey, new maps are always welcome.

P.S The behemoth nerf I noticed certainly needs some testing. I like the fact his overpowered passive flame ability was nerfed, however I fear it may still not be enough. Behemoth is feared not for his huge physical damage or health, but for his ability to deal ''unreasonable'' damage with passive immolation ability just by standing there and doing nothing. If it is still a thing - I guess devs should rework it from being passive to being active skill with a cooldown - walking meat torch is just too much to handle.

Looking forward to some other editor improvements ( namely some additional tweaking and easier map making ). I still do hope for 6p support for skirmish - it surely is possible and could bring some life into the game ( tbh this and good bots may actually save this game from oblivion in future ), please do it some day.
 

v0id

Programmer
Brightrock Games
Nov 18, 2011
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#6
However there's a huge minus left to deal with - outdated Bots. The aggression tweak may actually be a backfire since without defensive tactics ( logs don't point out anything about any specific tweaks to AI ) it may make bots even weaker since they don't know anything else. Tbh, you guys should had left bots completely untouched for this patch - there's more to do than just have them ''tamed'' a bit.
I think you interpret too much into things. The patch notes are not clear enough as the change only impacts AI in campaign mode, which took more shrines early than it was supposed to, but the bots were mainly untouched for the release version otherwise.
And we are still planning to overhaul the bots (and did start to already), hopefully for 1.4 but there was too much time going into the map editor to get this finished this for 1.3 already.
You sound always a bit pushy but we are only a few people and we can not fork ourself :p
 
Jan 3, 2013
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#8
You often interpret too much into things. The patch notes are not clear enough as the change only impacts AI in campaign mode, which took more shrines early than it was supposed to, but the bots were mainly untouched for the release version otherwise.
And we are still planning to overhaul the bots (and did start to already), hopefully for 1.4 but there was too much time going into the map editor to get this finished this for 1.3 already.
You sound always a bit pushy but we are only a few people and we can not fork ourself :p
Well I read logs and make my assumptions based on them. It seems they aren't always clear enough of what's changed, thus I end up with wrong idea and misunderstanding.

In this case it's still the thing - bots have trouble on some new maps, especially the ones that require them use certain aspects like outposts, not to mention they still can't handle some things. I suppose they could be at least taught some things like these so they could function correctly on those maps. Don't take it wrong - I understand that you do what you can with your two hands, it's just these minor things are too important to be left for future.
 

v0id

Programmer
Brightrock Games
Nov 18, 2011
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#9
There are millions of minor things which make the game better and we can do them only one by one.
Because the game is quite heterogenous and every single tech is unique, each aspect the AI can handle requires extra care and tweaking.
Which can cost A LOT of time to handle. It's not that we are not aware about, you're not telling something new, it's just that such things take time.
However I wonder why you point after each patch to small things missing instead of looking at what was done.
I am sure current patch adds a lot of replay value and I am also sure if we would have focused on what you say instead,
the patch would be by far less great ;)
 

Nutter

Frost Weaver
WFTO Founder
Jan 19, 2013
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nutter666.tumblr.com
#12
So its now possible to make custom co-op maps?
Build a map with some inhibitors (atleast 1) and some empire forces to defend it, then put multiple underlord cores on the map.

If all the players are on the same team it'll be co-op. If there are 2+ teams.. it'll be kinda co-op (you can work together to destroy the inhibitors) but you'll still have to kill the other team too.
 

BlackBeard

Firebreather
Mar 21, 2015
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#13
The work that has been done in this patch is simply amazing ..

The map editor is complete and intuitive .. this brings a refreshing breath to the game ...

surely the team has to work on certain aspects of the game, but just look back (patch 1.0) to understand the progress made by the team.

patch 1.3 vote: 8+/10
 
Likes: Reyh!
Jul 29, 2013
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#14
Been looking in the map editor and its very nice, there is just 1 feature i miss, and that is the ability to decide which underlord is in which team before the game begins (set teams)
 

v0id

Programmer
Brightrock Games
Nov 18, 2011
2,428
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Germany
#15
@Kormai
If we would do this it would just limit the things you can do, rather than adding anything new.
Isn't it much better to decide this each time you play the map in the lobby, so you can play the same map in multiple ways?
 
Jan 3, 2013
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#16
So its now possible to make custom co-op maps?
It is, though it won't work correctly.

1. If everyone is allied, anyone's death ends the game for all others. ( In SP ).
2. Due to lack of AI configuration, there might be problems on maps that require player dispatch group of Empire units separately ( I call them Empire's Box, these usually are some Empire units placed in secluded area ), as AI just tries to grind it's way, which may result into them losing all of their troops since they do this way too early. These ones make Co-Op map with AI almost unplayable.

Also note that when trying to make co-op map, you need to consider the amount of content you add. Putting traps like Chilling Trap or Embers ( these are so good as they allow Empire-controlled embers siege players ) may cause FPS drops, making map less playable. Same can be said about large number of heroes, since you can't tell them to patrol specific area ( no action points or triggers ), they will try to roam around the territory, colliding with others and also causing FPS Drop. Even if you isolate boxes with close doors, they will still keep moving around the area, unless you trap them in 1x1 tile somehow. These particular problems may make Co-Op map nearly unplayable in MP mode.

I tried making some Co-Op maps myself, but due to these issues I decided to stop until they get properly addressed.

Kind of! You can put inhibitors in which need to be destroyed and if all players are allied you can attack the empire in co-op mode.
See: http://steamcommunity.com/app/230190/discussions/0/485624149164208782/#c485624149165349651
Or watch:
There are issue with territory around inhibitors. For some reason sometimes inhibitors can't be claimed and imps refuse to progress further. I believe it has something to do with the fact that ruins of inhibitors don't correctly change ownerships when claimed by someone else.

It's pity that inhibitors can't be owned by players from start. I could see some TD style maps being made with Inhibitor defense in mind ( like the Survival Prototype ), but for now it won't happen with public version of editor.

Build a map with some inhibitors (atleast 1) and some empire forces to defend it, then put multiple underlord cores on the map.

If all the players are on the same team it'll be co-op. If there are 2+ teams.. it'll be kinda co-op (you can work together to destroy the inhibitors) but you'll still have to kill the other team too.
It could work, though as I listed problems above it might not work as intended. However, for the sake of such maps, I'd suggest adding some sort of HP regen for Inhibitors, since you can't really put a massive guard around them without turning game into slide show, while currently breaking an inhibitor is a piece of cake for many players with average skill. In future, if triggers will be added, destruction of inhibitor could be used as a trigger for Empire's punisher pack, like it already is in level 10, allowing map maker add extra challenge for players into the game.

There are millions of minor things which make the game better and we can do them only one by one.
Because the game is quite heterogenous and every single tech is unique, each aspect the AI can handle requires extra care and tweaking.
Which can cost A LOT of time to handle. It's not that we are not aware about, you're not telling something new, it's just that such things take time.
However I wonder why you point after each patch to small things missing instead of looking at what was done.
I am sure current patch adds a lot of replay value and I am also sure if we would have focused on what you say instead,
the patch would be by far less great ;)
The problem here Void is you add the content, but the content's replayability Value still remains the same. Let me clarify this a bit :

In single player, 2 things define the Value - Maps, or their quantity and AI, or their uniqueness. While I have no problem with the maps right now ( though some are barely playable and suffer the fate my maps did, like Ironhide ), AI still suffers from major problems like before - inability to use all vital aspects ( gold Vortex for Shrines, outpost for reaching hard areas and so on ), and lack of alternative tactics, which make every match against AI pretty much the same since they cant come up with something different - it will always be a bland rush attempt without a back up plan. Don't take this as a critic for your work made around AI - it has great potential, but for now, it really can't keep people entertained long enough. Different AI personalities also suffer from some fundamental problems making them too weak as an opponents, like Rhaskos ignoring lair, Marcus ignoring beast den, Kasita not utilizing her gold efficiently, Oberon slacking behind in Sin race and so on. These problems will become more visible to any player after 2 or 3 matches with same AI opponent on the same map.

To sum-up : It's like each map adds like 25 - 30 mins of game play ( excluding superlarge ones, they either add up to 45 mins or don't work at all ). In terms of replayability - up to 2 matches with the same AI personality, after that it's always the same.

In multiplayer, the Value is defined by the quantity of maps, their quality and stability. Quantity in this case is fine, so is quality, but stability is under the question. I won't go into details much, but I'm very sure those large maps ( the ones beyond x70 size ) will either lead to FPS drop or end up causing connection issues. This is why the creation of such maps is still too much for the game as it seem to struggle with such large amount of content - it requires some form of optimization, which I'm not yet sure of what kind it could be since it is game-engine related issue.

What I'm trying to say here Void is I do appreciate the changes and the addition of new content ( new maps ), however I also raise concerns and worries that still grip to me - in this case that's AI. I lost my hope into MP mode long time ago, but this patch brings my hopes for SP mode back, because I believe this is the only thing that can save the game, but you guys don't dedicate enough attention to it ( Editor addition is huge t-up from me, but outdated AI prevents it's full utilization ). I guess AI is left for v1.4, which may happen next year, so I'll just keep waiting and check for more updates on Editor, so far my expectations are met, even if only partly.
 
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Nutter

Frost Weaver
WFTO Founder
Jan 19, 2013
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#17
It could work, though as I listed problems above it might not work as intended. However, for the sake of such maps, I'd suggest adding some sort of HP regen for Inhibitors, since you can't really put a massive guard around them without turning game into slide show, while currently breaking an inhibitor is a piece of cake for many players with average skill. In future, if triggers will be added, destruction of inhibitor could be used as a trigger for Empire's punisher pack, like it already is in level 10, allowing map maker add extra challenge for players into the game.
No, not it could work... it does work. Me, Marados and Benethar have all created 1player vs Empire Scenario maps already, they are in game right now. Have you not even looked at the Scenario tab?
 
Jan 3, 2013
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#18
No, not it could work... it does work. Me, Marados and Benethar have all created 1player vs Empire Scenario maps already, they are in game right now. Have you not even looked at the Scenario tab?
I'm talking about maps with more than one player, hense Co-Op maps. Maps vs Empire in solo are sandbox/scenario maps which work fine so far.
 

Nutter

Frost Weaver
WFTO Founder
Jan 19, 2013
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#19
I'm talking about maps with more than one player, hense Co-Op maps. Maps vs Empire in solo are sandbox/scenario maps which work fine so far.
I've built one of those too. It just isn't released yet since i'm waiting for something new to include in the map before I show it off/release it.

If teams are instantly losing as soon as one member of the team dies then that's a bug, but i'm pretty sure that's not even happening when teams are properly set up.
 
Jan 3, 2013
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#20
I've built one of those too. It just isn't released yet since i'm waiting for something new to include in the map before I show it off/release it.

If teams are instantly losing as soon as one member of the team dies then that's a bug, but i'm pretty sure that's not even happening when teams are properly set up.
If there's only one team in the game aka Team 1 only or Team 2, then the death of single team member ends the game for others. If there are two teams then everything is fine. The same thing is if you set all players to AI including yourself via debug - as soon as anyone dies game ends.
 
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