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Please fix A.I.!

Discussion in 'Suggestion Archive' started by Electrolight, Jan 17, 2016.

  1. Electrolight
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    Electrolight Priestess Backer

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    I thought that the latest update cam with A.I. improvements but the A.I. is still spreading out too quickly and too early and are invading my territory. It is not fun and it made me stop playing the game. I generally play on large maps and the A.I. either enemy or ally keeps trying to dig paths out across the map and right into my dungeon. I am about to just give up on WFTO altogether.

    Also, I am tired of my ally A.I. digging up my dungeon. Please make it so they won't dig any walls next to or within a certain radius of any of my claimed tiles.
     
  2. Slichizard
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    Slichizard Bard

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    You can always rebuild what was dug out.

    As for improving AI - digging everything out is the least of the problems here. Trust me, there are many other things that require urgent attention first.
     
  3. Electrolight
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    Electrolight Priestess Backer

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    This isn't about the time or cost of replacing walls. This is about the A.I. digging into my space and me spending all my time just trying to keep the A.I. at bay which is frustrating and pointless since the A.I. does everything so much faster. The A.I always has more creatures and when they dig across the map right up to my dungeon early on and spam all it's minions close to my core, it just becomes impossible to defend against that.

    You are wrong, this is a serious problem and like I fucking said, it made me stop playing the game. Trust me, there aren't many other things that require urgent attention as this does.
     
  4. Slichizard
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    Slichizard Bard

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    I feel like you still need to learn how to play this game.

    Lets begin with the fact that AI doesn't have any form of extra creature gain boost. The amount and the speed of creature gain completely depends on how you expand. Just so you know, building huge rooms doesn't mean getting lots of the desired creature types in short amount of time.

    Imps digging to your dungeon is actually a situation you can benefit from. Since enemy imps are busy trying to dig through your walls, that means they are less interested in claiming your territory. You can train your creatures by dropping some near imps and letting them kill those imps. Any wall or breach those imps created can be repaired by brand new wall of yours.

    AI doesn't do things as quickly as you imagine. Just so you know, right now AI doesn't do any extra ordinary thing, or something human player can not do. If you don't believe me - just pick a 3p map and make AI's fight between each other. Put one as your ally and observe it's actions.

    AI is actually hurting itself far more than you by doing those early breaches. By no means AI can beat you that early if you have some rooms made already. At any moment you can just isolate your core with the wall - AI will simply be unable to breach it, at least because it won't make that far and doesn't use Armageddon ritual.

    So do yourself a favor - try playing again. If enemy imps are the reason why you stopped, you played this game the wrong way. This AI suffers from far worse troubles than poor imp management.
     
  5. Nutter
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    Nutter Inquisitor Founder

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    Keep it Civil please. There's no need for swearing at other members of our community. I assume you're referring an enemy AI during one of the campaign levels?
     
  6. Electrolight
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    Electrolight Priestess Backer

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    No, I am referring to the A.I. in Skirmish.
     
  7. Nutter
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    Nutter Inquisitor Founder

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    Which setting did you have it on? It sounds like you might want to consider trying an easier difficulty until you've learned the various weaknesses the current AI has which you can then exploit.
     
  8. Noontide
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    Noontide Award Winning Community Manager Dev Team

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    This is probably not the best way to word your feelings Slichizard, I'm sure many of us still have much to learn about the game. Offhand comments like this can easily bait others into arguments. Though I personally don't feel you meant anything by it and are only trying to help.

    If someone upsets you, please report them rather than rising to the bait, we do not tolerate toxic behaviour and language on these forums. Please try to remain civil. I've removed your post to prevent further escalation.

    I will not take action against either of you at this time, but consider it a warning.

    On topic: Have you tried playing against the "Marcus" AI personality? What difficulty do you play on?
     
  9. Slichizard
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    Slichizard Bard

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    Actually when I said he had to learn how to play I did mean it.

    Many players try to play this game just like the DK ones and end up falling. What he is suffering from ( imp invasion ) is purely WFTO thing, which many players have to adept to and learn how to counter it. In my previous post I explained how to do that. Heck I even elaborated why this thing is more beneficial to AI's opponent, rather than AI itself.

    If people just drop the game and expect it become easier after, they are doing it wrong as well. Better ask experienced players how to deal with certain situations - many who know will gladly guide or provide the advice.
     
  10. Electrolight
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    Electrolight Priestess Backer

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    I always set it to Master AI and random personality. This isn't about difficulty or me not knowing how to play the game. The AI's should stay in it's own space and build a proper dungeon and train it's creatures and let me do the same. The AI is too aggressive in how it digs the map. I want the AI to be challenging but without turning it into speed skirmish which is not how I like to play.
     
  11. Slichizard
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    Slichizard Bard

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    That is general AI problem, not imp invasion one. It was discussed many times before and there's only one solution - completely rewrite all AI personalities, so they actually do have some differences and proper settings defined. The way they are right now is pretty much counter-productive and is extremely easy to counter.
     
  12. Electrolight
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    Electrolight Priestess Backer

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    So can any of the devs comment on this. I remember seeing in an earlier article or forum post that an overhaul for the A.I. was being worked on for an upcoming update. Was that it already or is there more coming?
     
  13. Nutter
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    Nutter Inquisitor Founder

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    An overhaul of the AI is planned for a future milestone patch, which I think was 1.5 (but don't hold me to it because I;m not100% sure) rather than 1.4.
     
  14. AdxUndead
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    AdxUndead Ghoul

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    There is a bit of a general story going on between five or so posts. One suggestion they haven't said no to is an ally imp empassei flag placeable on earth. This will slove your ally digging up your area/blocking you with claimed tile problem.
     
  15. Slichizard
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    Slichizard Bard

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    Your AI ally shouldn't naturally dig your walls. Normally it should stay away from your dungeon as far as possible while be able to drop his units on your territory should you ever participate in combat or your core is in danger. It should also be capable of casting spells on your territory or dropping certain potions in order to provide you with protection/assistance.

    This stuff is far more serious. There may be a need for sub menu which would grant human player an option to ''request'' certain kind of things from AI, as well as an info box ( or chat messages ) when ally AI needs any sort of help of it's own.

    I could list some stuff like this, but I'm afraid devs don't have enough resources yet for them. Guess it will arrive somewhere at Q2, most likely at Q3, if ever.
     
  16. AdxUndead
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    AdxUndead Ghoul

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    You really don't play with the AI as an ally much. This can be gleaned from two things. One, you bitch that 1v3 masters is too easy so explain how you have the experience to form that opinion I (play with others with AI teammates alot, almost every game AI digs through the others walls. and hear/see the complaints. Two, you use a open style dungeon. You don't use walls full stop. So why do you think you know anything about problems with any AI ally and digging through your walls and blocking your path with claimed tile? Outpost to get past you say antagonisticly? Because newbs don't see that and rage, also wont help if the tiles interupt a proposed floorplan.
     
  17. Slichizard
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    Slichizard Bard

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    Unless you literally hug your AI ally from start, there should be no problem for you.

    AI currently doesn't even understand that it is in team, so it does it's standard stuff. This includes digging everytime and everywhere.

    You can complain as much as you want, this problem won't be solved until AI gets completely rewritten. Till that moment, why don't you barricade yourself from your ally if it is such a huge trouble for you? You could simply focus on playing the game instead.
     
  18. AdxUndead
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    AdxUndead Ghoul

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    You lack empathy. This is not problem that effects 'us' much, although i use walls i pop a Fortify around the 11 min mark and when we share an entrance i normally get to it first and claim a path out.
    I say us because I and definitely you come from RTS and are among the best players of this game. Things people complain about, to us, have work arounds. But you seem to lack the understanding that the varst majority lack the skills to do it like we do. They have their reasons. Whether they come from a SIM demographic or they want their ally close to help protect them.
    We are not the norm. We are the 95th percentile. We are outliers. Play better is not constructive criticism. Our competitive RTS experience is not generalizable. You are THE most prominent voice and it's not usually a nice one. Stop putting people off.
    That goes double ingame. "This guy isn't as good as us so go easy" means "wait 'till last to get her" not "rush her A SAP to get a portal advantage". Do you think these people you insist I have join because you don't like 1v1 have a good time? This isn't Bnet or COD. You don't have an infinite player base to be a jerk and sore winner too. Adjust your attitude.

    *edit if this post doesn't get a bunch of likes, i'll apologise*
     
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  19. Slichizard
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    Slichizard Bard

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    I certainly do not lack empathy. I am aware that many do struggle with this game and what I find easy might look impossible to others.

    When I play with people whom I see significantly are weaker in terms of skill, I intentionally drag the game, allowing them expand as much as possible, without stealing anything. Our last game on your map I intentionally didn't go for your friend, he was the one who dug out the tunnel to my side of the map and went with his entire army on me. In case like that, I clearly had no option but to defend myself, and given the fact the map was like at max size, I knew that I either had to go for it, or eventually end up losing should other players decide to attack me instead.

    I don't mind 1v1 games. I do play those from time to time, though those are less fun because the game itself is made that way - you either beat your opponent when you have a chance, or you risk losing because you didn't. This is the reason why I prefer 4p maps - they allow me to play at more relaxed pace where I do ''drag'' or even ''forgive'' opponent and intentionally stay away from him for a bit longer. If I were a typical rusher jerk, I would only play 1v1 maps ( specifically the small ones ) and wouldn't bother waiting - killing an opponent at 5 min mark would be a nice game for me. Please, don't think that I'm some online game nerd to whom it's either a victory or death in real life - game is a game, some are good, some are bad.

    Now about AI - AI won't get any major changes, including the ones that will make them stop digging entire map, including walls of allies ( human players do count ). Flag that would make AI ally stay away from you would work in theory, but it wouldn't stop enemies from turning your dungeon into swiss cheese, and ( can't believe I say this ) spending time on this is the waste, better do something more useful. AI digging your dungeon over and over is not the biggest problem - it has poor creature management, poor imp management, poor room management and lacks of knowledge of certain aspects of the game, which means simply stopping AI from digging everything won't solve the problem. This is gigantic work that has to be done, work that can take a huge patch ( 1.5 ), because just tweaking some lines of code won't be sufficient.
    Consider the fact that we will get 1.4 patch first, which mostly will consist of new DLC, new balance tweaks and some additional content ( maybe devs will drop in some new maps, or the ones from QA guys ). This will take one Quarter of the year at least.

    If the development of 1.5 patch will start somewhere in Q2, then it probably will be released somewhere at Q3. That's like 6 months of time, during which this problem will still remain. You have 2 options - keep complaining that bots still do the same stuff over and over for 6 months, or you can do yourself a favor ( as well as for devs ) and learn how to play with such bots. Surely it won't be very enjoyable, but if you take my words seriously, simply because I believe I'm experienced enough to say so, you can quite ignore these issues with AI and focus on game itself. As I said many times before - if AI is pestering you with imps, you can turn it to your advantage instead.

    I do know that many find me slightly aggressive in terms of communication or maybe during the game, please bear in mind that I don't carry any such intention. I also do not intend to provoke anyone here, as that won't be beneficial to me in any way. Instead, I try to teach people that everything can be either countered or adapted to. I'm always ready to provide a guide or any sort of help should any fellow WFTO player need from me. Pity you see me as someone I currently am not.
     
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  20. Nutter
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    Nutter Inquisitor Founder

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    I like this Slich... it's a shame he's not around a little more often :)
     

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