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suggestion AI assistant

Discussion in 'Suggestion Archive' started by Tommonius, May 12, 2013.

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  1. Tommonius
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    Tommonius Skarg Backer

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    Okay I got a bad history of making threads that people already discussed but a glance at the pages of the suggestion forums does not show AI assistants like we had in DK1 (if it does sorry about this)

    Did people like the assistant managing parts of your dungeon like making new rooms? Personally I LOVE managing my own battles/dungeon economy and hero conversion but a few people in the past in discussion have noted annoyance at micro managing and making the same dungeon each new level.

    So do people want AI assistant or not? would it be possible to put in wTFO? and if so what functions could it manage?
     
  2. Lord of Riva
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    Lord of Riva The Lord Founder

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    nope nobody suggested that :D

    and to be honest i think this feature sucks badly, the Ai wont probably help me getting my tactics executed, irrelevant if it is good or not... a machine cant think... ;)

    anyway adding this ;)
     
  3. Fireeye
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    Fireeye Shadow Backer

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    I do not think this would make for a good feature because of three reasons:

    1.) While having to micro-manage your dungeon may at times seem mundane, it is still an integral part of the game. Handing this role over to the AI would not only drastically limit the variety of different strategies you could employ, but could also give you an unfair advantage over players who chose to micromanage the dungeon on their own, as they effectively have to divide their attention between fighting you and keeping and eye on their own home.

    2.) Most AIs in RTS games are frustratingly stupid; a result of the fact that they can only follow certain program routines and are largely incapable of adepting to new situations. As such, an AI agent may very well carve you a nice dungeon, but it will more than likely fail to acknowledge the problems a specific mission in the campaign or a specific human opponent in multiplayer games will offer. There is, simply put, a reason why winning against an AI is usually remarkably easy when compared to winning against a human player of the roughly same skill.

    3.) If people dislike micro-management, this simply is the wrong game for them.
     
  4. Cultist Joris
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    Cultist Joris Ember Demon Founder

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    I never used computer-help in DK anyway, except by accident (it ruined my whole dungeon design... :()... It don't think people will need this, especially when there will be difficulty levels...
     
  5. Tommonius
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    Tommonius Skarg Backer

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    I actually agree with the sentiment and am playing devils advocat here a bit. I think it was the old timed levels thread that people brought up micro managing a dungeon especially when time was sensitive, also some indeed did dislike remaking the dungeon (shocked to be honest the best bit is making a dungeon for me AND modifying it for the needs of the level)

    I suppose in timed levels you could simply be given a few standard rooms if it made people happy. also:

    There will be easy and hard modes? WOOOOP! I am going to love hard mode from the start, really get the sense the heroes are throwing everything and the kitchen sink at you... in fact a kitchen sink catapult trap would be nice :cool:
     
  6. Peetfighter
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    Peetfighter Augre Founder

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    Did use it one time, never again...
     
  7. Amon
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    Amon Ember Demon

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    To be honest, I did not know there was an 'A.I assistant' in DKI. Judging from the comments made here, I might as well have not known... I'm not gonna use it!
     
  8. Mozared
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    Mozared Juggernaut Founder

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    It's an interesting topic. Gut reaction based on DK1 and the argument that dungeon management is an integral part of the game immediately says no.

    That's not said the whole idea and concept becomes uninteresting after that point, though. I have a feeling something could be done with helpful AI's that doesn't make the game less game-y and doesn't ruin your own dungeon design. The question is, what?
     
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  9. Manny
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    Manny Bloodling Backer

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    Hmm. Not liking the idea; the problem I could see emerge here is the strategy of the player not being 'in sync' with the AI's approach. That being said, I think it could be nice if the AI could pose suggestions; I can see new players and casuals benefit from certain hints.
     
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  10. Amon
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    Amon Ember Demon

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    If that makes it in, then it should be an option that you can turn off. I would leave it on, but other people...
     
  11. Slichizard
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    Slichizard Bard

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    People probably never used assistant the way it was intended and assistant itself wasn't tailored properly, not to mention it wasn't working properly on all maps. However, assistant in DK1 ( Pick Only ) could deploy all your troops and use spells in combat in a second, making things much easier. DK2 pseudo-assistant is purely for testing ( game was unplayable because AI assumed full control ).

    In short - feature can be quite useful, if player can turn it on/off and configure it the way he needs in some simple way.
     
  12. D@nzingtree
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    [email protected] Crackpot

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    The ai builder was very fast in dk, the mechanic could be abused by using it as a starting help for multiplayer and campaign levels were time matters.
    Maybe a cheap hint mode would be enough, click on tiny button on the far left to get a text message with a room priority or building order to help you in easy mode.
     
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  13. Medjay
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    Medjay Shadow Backer

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    I rather like stretching myself to the limit of my micro-managing ability. I mean, in essence this game is about which player is the better micromanager (domestically and in combat), so I can't see how making any of this process automating would make the game any more fun. Sorry :)
     
  14. Ben Chandler
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    Ben Chandler Impassibly Cool Backer

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    I think on occasion if everything was secure I used it in dk1 while leisurely waiting, with the setting so it basically only slapped lazy imps and slow trainers.
     
  15. Zieluowaty
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    Zieluowaty Dwarven Worker

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    I want say about AI.

    If you want to make really good campaign in this game you must make AI which can learn. I know that it's hard to implement but look at the SC2 AI. It's learn all the time and play with it is always new expirience! Think about it! Campaign where your opponents are stronger from mission to mission!

    Secondly you should do something with workers AI. When I tell them to dig, they don't want to do nothing else! Player should has some options which gave him opportunity to tell how many percentage of all workers should dig, build walls, capturing new lands and else...

    ps. I see that you choose Unity, that's a great graphical and physical engine! Good luck!
     
  16. MGoods
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    MGoods Warden

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    Um....

    SCII doesn't have a learning AI. I think you don't quite understand what that is.
     
  17. Zieluowaty
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    Zieluowaty Dwarven Worker

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    Supreme Commander 2, not Starcraft 2, I forgot that when i write SC2 someone can thought about Starcraft xD

    ANd I know what mean learning AI, beacuse I must to learn about it on study :p
     
  18. MGoods
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    MGoods Warden

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    Huh, I never played Supreme commander, so I can't comment, but I'm surprised that any game has had a true learning AI, let alone a game that came out three years ago. For one thing most people's computers wouldn't be able to handle it, even people with gaming computers might struggle because they often focus on GPU to classify a computer as a 'gaming computer'.

    Then again I suppose it might just be a limited/stripped down learning AI. It doesn't take much to be able to classify your game's AI as a learning AI when compared to every other game out there. Unfortunately AI technology has a history of over-promising and under-delivering, mostly because it tends to make a very beefy system to do anything even remotely intelligent. Intelligence is hard it seems :p .
     
  19. Zieluowaty
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    Zieluowaty Dwarven Worker

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    I'm not speaking about full AI which can pass the turing test
    Only about the system which can collect data about the opponent's strategy, how he builds rooms, trains monsters, collects gold.
    In old games like, for example, 'Dungeon Keeper' or 'Knights and Merchants' opponents had many resources, nearly unlimited and no inteligence at all. They trained troops and sent them to our bases.
    If you raised difficulty level the only thing that changed were special multipliers for speed of training troops, their strength and everything like that. When you find some way to force a computer player to do something stupid, you could easily win all missions (for example Stronghold: Crusader Kings).
     
  20. MGoods
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    MGoods Warden

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    To the best of my knowledge there is no game that doesn't increase difficulty, at least at the higher ends, by giving the AI more stuff (more resources, convert resources to units faster, etc). It's a phenomenon known as "The AI is a cheating bastard", which also covers games where the AI doesn't have fog of war.

    I'm also not talking about AIs that pass the turing test. The most successful AIs for this kind of application (that I've heard of) have actually used evolutionary models (Take a 'base' AI, generate 10000 copies with random variants, have them fight thousands of battles, take the most successful ones and generate thousands of copies and have them fight, etc). Obviously that's unsuitable for making an AI practice against a human because even if someone played solidly for a week you wouldn't even get through one 'generation' of AIs, so practically no improvement. My experience with this kind of AI development is periphery at best ofc, while we did have two courses on AI development at uni they tended to mostly cover fundamentals and the mathematical basis of different approaches for AI development for any field, so I don't know what research groups at the cutting edge have done, and their successes tend to take a few years to filter through to actual products.

    EDIT: Huh, I rambled a bit, but anyway I imagine that the greatest hurdle to making a 'learning' AI is how you make it recognize actual strategy. How do you get it to analyse it's opponents actions? AIs (that aren't generational) are generally terrible at adapting to emerging situations, emergent gameplay, that humans are very good at adapting to. The best you would probably manage with a learning AI is some kind of random but weighted system based on previous success, but that would still be unable to deal with 'trap' situations because that kind of system 'learns' good unit compositions, not good pathing, not good strategy, so you could still lead them into 'the valley of death' repeatedly. Systems for avoiding 'the valley of death' do exist ofc, take random approaches, use units with different mobility options (eg, flying units) and the AI can use them, and you can weight the different approaches, but honestly the success of those different approaches tends to be very situational. Attacking through the front door (say in starcraft 2) is probably going to succeed in the first few minutes, but not after that, at least for the first base and the expansion. But it again becomes a valid strategy when attacking later bases because often they go undefended by any static defense so the only important thing is to get there while avoiding the army, weather or not you are a flying unit or a ground unit doesn't matter.

    ugh, rambling again.
     
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