The doors discussion

[Psycix]

Following this thread, perhaps it would be interesting to talk about the doors.
I'm not for or against anything just yet, though slightly skeptical of the current implementation. The purpose of this thread is to consider the pro's and cons to have certain styles of doors in the game, allow people to spill their thoughts and perhaps it would be cool if one of the devs could highlight why or what.


So in WFTO doors work like this:
-Are always open
-AI closes temporarily for enemies (and so will players need to)
-When open, everyone can pass through
-They can be closed by the player, allowing nobody through

In other DMG's, doors usually work like this:
-Are always closed
-Then they open temporarily for friendlies
-When open, everyone can pass through (at least in dk1, not sure about 2)
-They can be locked, allowing nobody through


As a result, in WFTO, doors are completely useless UNLESS micro'd.
Currently, I think this might be confusing to newer players, including DMG veterans.

v0id posted this in the other thread:

Yes would be better. Short: The deal is doors are very OP as they are cheap and you can chain them up without getting any penalty as this was possible in other DMGs.

Like it? Don't like it?
Discuss!

 

[Andree Ehrig]

Yeah, the usage of doors in WFTO is quite confusing. I am used to their functionality from DK2 - open to friendlies unless locked by the player. Enemies always have to destroy the door, regardless if it's open or closed. In DK2 there also was the "secret door" which was really useful! I'm not a fan of the WFTO doors the way they currently are.

 

[Tilen]

I don't want to micromanage things in a DMG. I dislike the way doors function currently, and wish they would function like they did in DK2, or in Stronghold: Crusader 2 for example.

 

[Noontide]

You can find a more comprehensive statement on the design of doors in this old thread. A long story short is that it makes doors a lot more interesting by opening up more mechanics that you can tie to them.

 

[mishko]

The micro for doors in this game is something I don't find to be very fun. I like the automatically opening doors when friendly creatures want to go through.

 

[mishko]

I think it will be really weird having all doors in your dungeon being constantly open if you want your creatures to be able to freely walk around your dungeon. There was much more visual appeal for the doors being closed while creatures open and close them themselves. Also your creatures won't automatically walk outside your dungeon unless you keep the door to your dungeon open. All of the micro involving the doors just seem tedious and not fun to me.

 

[GummiBear]

Yeah i would prefer doors that auto open for friends only too, and as Andree said i too am really gonna miss the secret doors from dk2 too, really LOVED the mission against pureheart where you had to try to build your dungeon without the area of the heroes xD

and yes psycix anyone could pass through a door opened by a friend too in DK2

 

[SADevil]

May be an addition of third door-mode could help, that will make them function as in DK2 (let friendly units to enter and not enemies). For example:

1. By default door functions as in DK2 (so it provide defense than your units aren't near with no need to manualy close them)
2. Left click for "always open" mode (to let enemies in and then close the door behind them)
3. Right click for "always closed" mode (with visual lock on the door to distinguish from default mode)

Return to default mode by secondary click of respective mouse button of current mode.
Or something like that...

 

[GummiBear]

And what SADevil would be the advantage of the always open mode over only open for own minions, when the original issue apparently were that doors supposedly were too OP with just the only open fire minions and always closed? If anything that sound like you make them even more OP them

 

[SADevil]

I haven't consider any OPness of the doors, I just suggested another way to incorporate old door mechanics into WFTO without loosing its own mechanics. Any way I prefer DK2 doors, because they provide some life to the dungeon (with constant opening and closing) even then you don't have enemies. I play only singleplayer, so I far from competetive play and just can't debate on that matter.

 

[Simburgur]

I actually do agree to some extent, I'll make a note to revisit door balance at a later date. For now it's in an acceptable state for launch though, so we're focusing on more important features at the moment.

 

[GummiBear]

another idea could be maybe to have it depend on the door, so that well all doors can be locked for all but some doors when open would be open for everyone, (mainly the really strong doors, would thus be suitable for the edges of your dungeons, like that one that makes the walls beside it impenetrable and such), and others only be open for own minions in the open state (generally the weaker doors like the basic wooden door and such, and thus would be more suitable for inside your dungeon, as your minions would still be able to move past them but have the slow down enemy minions that broke through your front defence line, but wont last too long against a full army of enemy minions)

But yeah deffinatly not a priority issue

 

[mishko]

I think a really good way to handle the doors is to be able to toggle between manual doors and automatic doors, but when you set them to automatic it makes them a lot easier to destroy.

 

[Skorp]

How about having tree states with the doors? Always open, always closed and automatic (closes when enemies are near, no matter if your own creatures are there). The automatic state locks some mana, 10 for example, so it has some balance.

 

[Valtiel]

If you have doors that are either "always closed" or "open for minions, closed for foes", then the Glacial Door's ice blast doesn't work, the Midas Door is a liability because you can't force it open to stop it draining your treasury, and you can't slam a door behind enemy creatures to lock them in. Conversely, if your options are "always open" or "open for minions, closed for foes", then the Glacial Door will never accumulate any ice unless it's miles out of your minions' way and you can't lock your minions in the training room to force them to work.


I stand by what I've always said: Doors should have three modes, not two. Always Open, Always Closed, and Automatic. The Glacial Door is a bit of a special case here, and I think it should be solved like this:

• The Glacial Door accumulates ice whenever it's closed (either Always Closed or Automatic with no allies trying to path through it), and loses all ice whenever it opens.
• The explosion of ice triggers only if it opens when there are enemies within range.
• I'd recommend that, in order to prevent losing all accumulated ice when switching from Automatic to Always Closed, the cycle order for states should be Auto -> Closed -> Open -> Auto.

Whether doors in Automatic mode should prioritize "keep enemies out" or "let allies through" is a question that really needs playtesting to answer; I can see arguments for both possibilities.

(...aaaaand ninja'd by Skorp. Great minds, I guess.)

 

[mishko]

That makes sense for the automatic door mode to lock mana and it would balance it.

 

[Psycix]

Thanks for all the replies so far, I think this thread may contain useful feedback for the devs.
Mainly it is interesting to see that people are practically unanimous on not liking the current doors.
Personally, aside from the annoying micro, I love how auto-opening the doors make the dungeon feel "alive". It adds to an interactive environment and builds atmosphere.

As the devs pointed out, part of this is because of the special mechanics of the midas door and glacial door that make the normal behavior unsuitable.
The 3-state doors are a nice solution to this, and the mana-locking addition to that is also a very interesting idea, but the downside of this all is how it might be unnecessarily complicated.

I think that a standard wooden door wouldn't really need 3 modes, perhaps the glacial and midas doors can simply work differently from other doors. Them being always open unless locked (WftO style), while the wooden door and portcullis are closed with auto-open for friendlies and can be locked (DK style)?

 

[Skorp]

Thanks for all the replies so far, I think this thread may contain useful feedback for the devs.
Mainly it is interesting to see that people are practically unanimous on not liking the current doors.
Personally, aside from the annoying micro, I love how auto-opening the doors make the dungeon feel "alive". It adds to an interactive environment and builds atmosphere.

As the devs pointed out, part of this is because of the special mechanics of the midas door and glacial door that make the normal behavior unsuitable.
The 3-state doors are a nice solution to this, and the mana-locking addition to that is also a very interesting idea, but the downside of this all is how it might be unnecessarily complicated.

I think that a standard wooden door wouldn't really need 3 modes, perhaps the glacial and midas doors can simply work differently from other doors. Them being always open unless locked (WftO style), while the wooden door and portcullis are closed with auto-open for friendlies and can be locked (DK style)?

But sometimes you want to prevent your creatures from using the doors in order to block or separate certain parts of the dungeon, so a closed stated can be very useful. For example, you could build a dungeon for the cultists with only a slaughter pen, lair and archive and leave them researching sins while the other side of the dungeon has a tavern and training room with all the "combat" minions. Having them always close to the enemies wouldn't help because of the midas door or any strategy involving trapping the enemy with doors.

I think that by having a set or rules (the tri-state) that applies to all doors would be easy to understand, visually it could be represented by:

- Open state: The door is visibly open all the time
-Closed state: The door is closed and with an icon above it (a lock or a key)
-Automatic state: The door looks normal

 

[AvatarIII]

That makes sense for the automatic door mode to lock mana and it would balance it.

I like this, also it could be another thing you have to unlock and buy, it could be a spell or a defence that you must enchant/place on doors like a rampart, so it would take up mana, a sin and maybe even money to use.

 

[Psycix]

But sometimes you want to prevent your creatures from using the doors in order to block or separate certain parts of the dungeon, so a closed stated can be very useful. For example, you could build a dungeon for the cultists with only a slaughter pen, lair and archive and leave them researching sins while the other side of the dungeon has a tavern and training room with all the "combat" minions. Having them always close to the enemies wouldn't help because of the midas door or any strategy involving trapping the enemy with doors.

I think that by having a set or rules (the tri-state) that applies to all doors would be easy to understand, visually it could be represented by:

- Open state: The door is visibly open all the time
-Closed state: The door is closed and with an icon above it (a lock or a key)
-Automatic state: The door looks normal

Read again, in my proposition every door has a purely locked state.
It's just that I propose that the wooden door and porticullis are automatic when unlocked (DK style), and the midas and glacial door are 100% open while unlocked (WftO style).



I don't get why some people claim doors are OP. I don't think any door is OP, as you can also just use a replacement wall instead if you react in time. Augrum walls can be opened on command, so those can be placed in advance. Why waste your treasury on a midas if you can pre-place an augrum wall there?
Every door is inferior to a replacement wall. No matter how big an army, they won't get through there until they start digging or use an underminer or hellfire potion. Also, even if a defender had a door of unlimited strength, the weakness of the wall still exists. Just blow a hole next to the door!