• This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn more.

The doors discussion

mishko

Witch Doctor
WFTO Founder
Feb 27, 2012
866
238
440
25
Michigan
#21
I really agree with a lot of the things people are saying in this thread. I think the toggle should be Auto/Open/Locked. Auto makes it so that doors automatically open and shut for minions but stay shut for minions. Open lets allies and enemies alike through. And locked doesn't let anybody through. And the auto option can be balanced by mana locking or simply making it easier to destroy. UI for this isn't needed as left click could be Open/Close while right click Locks it.
 
Aug 28, 2014
94
41
165
34
#22
How about having tree states with the doors? Always open, always closed and automatic (closes when enemies are near, no matter if your own creatures are there). The automatic state locks some mana, 10 for example, so it has some balance.
That makes sense for the automatic door mode to lock mana and it would balance it.
I really don't like doors in automatic mode locking mana. What if I have all my doors open, and then spend all my mana on spells, and then try to set the doors to automatic? Do they refuse, so I can only switch them between Open and Closed, and if so how does the game communicate this suddenly-different behaviour to the player?

Also, if I have a load of mana locked up in automatic doors, and I suddenly need it, then I have to go through my dungeon clicking on doors before I can cast another spell. That is a silly, annoying micro that I would like to avoid.

Read again, in my proposition every door has a purely locked state.
It's just that I propose that the wooden door and porticullis are automatic when unlocked (DK style), and the midas and glacial door are 100% open while unlocked (WftO style).
This also works.
  • The wooden door doesn't benefit much from an always-open state. Its primary purpose is to restrict the movement of your own creatures; using it to let enemies through and then lock them in is a poor choice because it's too fragile too hold them for long. Its states should be Automatic and Locked.
  • The midas door absolutely needs an always-open state, because there are times when you'll need the gold more than you need to keep enemies out. It should either be Open-Automatic or Open-Locked; there are arguments for both but I'm leaning towards the former.
  • All the automatic state on a glacial door does is allow your own minions to waste the ice you've spent ages accumulating. It should be Open-Locked.
  • The portcullis seems about right for slamming behind enemies and locking them in; but you probably don't want to babysit it. I'd make it Open-Automatic. That said, big chains of portcullis in automatic mode might behave a bit oddly, so it might have to be Open-Locked.
Problem: Having all the doors behave differently might be more confusing to the player than just giving them all the same three states, even if some of those states are kinda useless.
 
Feb 23, 2015
64
14
85
32
Denmark
#23
This also works.
  • The wooden door doesn't benefit much from an always-open state. Its primary purpose is to restrict the movement of your own creatures; using it to let enemies through and then lock them in is a poor choice because it's too fragile too hold them for long. Its states should be Automatic and Locked.
  • The midas door absolutely needs an always-open state, because there are times when you'll need the gold more than you need to keep enemies out. It should either be Open-Automatic or Open-Locked; there are arguments for both but I'm leaning towards the former.
  • All the automatic state on a glacial door does is allow your own minions to waste the ice you've spent ages accumulating. It should be Open-Locked.
  • The portcullis seems about right for slamming behind enemies and locking them in; but you probably don't want to babysit it. I'd make it Open-Automatic. That said, big chains of portcullis in automatic mode might behave a bit oddly, so it might have to be Open-Locked.
Problem: Having all the doors behave differently might be more confusing to the player than just giving them all the same three states, even if some of those states are kinda useless.
In the way you are suggesting with some having completely locked and some not yes, it would be VERY confusing, but having all doors have a completely locked, (representing either with a Lock above it or chains with a Lock or something around it like in DK1 and 2 respectively), and then they EITHER have an always open (well the doors are always standing open like they does currently), or are closed (with no chains or Locks at it) when no friendly minions near, and opens when friendly minions are near, would be very easy, and saying there are doors that would not benefit from a completely locked state is BS, all doors can benefit from it as you may want to close passages either permanently or temporarily for your own minions, so it would basically be big sturdy doors that delay the enemy a lot would need to be microed either in form of manually opening and locking them or dropping creatures forth and back as needed, where less sturdy doors that wont delay them much you can more or less leave alone and they open for your minions when needed unless you tell them not to
 
Feb 1, 2014
290
96
250
24
#24
I really don't like doors in automatic mode locking mana. What if I have all my doors open, and then spend all my mana on spells, and then try to set the doors to automatic? Do they refuse, so I can only switch them between Open and Closed, and if so how does the game communicate this suddenly-different behaviour to the player?
It would work the same as other mana locking defenses, it reduces the maximum (no matter if its used or not) and if the mana resulting is less than 500 then you would get a message saying that there isn't enough mana and the door could only change from open to closed.
Also, if I have a load of mana locked up in automatic doors, and I suddenly need it, then I have to go through my dungeon clicking on doors before I can cast another spell. That is a silly, annoying micro that I would like to avoid.
You shouldn't put all your doors in automatic mode, I thought that this would be used mostly in areas that the enemy could access but you want your creatures or imps to continue using so you set a door in automatic mode to avoid micromanaging it. The mana cost is necessary because otherwise you could just set all the doors in automatic mode and forget about them, and the developers want a more interactive experience.
 

AvatarIII

Huntress
WFTO Founder
Apr 20, 2012
1,713
759
570
33
Worthing, West Sussex
#25
Problem: Having all the doors behave differently might be more confusing to the player than just giving them all the same three states, even if some of those states are kinda useless.
This is exactly the situation where "open/locked" should be the default, and you should be able to unlock "automatic" as a spell or potion or defence or construct or something (I'm leaning towards spell). this way you are basically upgrading whatever doors you want to an automatic mode, a slap could disable the enchantment/upgrade.
 

mishko

Witch Doctor
WFTO Founder
Feb 27, 2012
866
238
440
25
Michigan
#26
This is exactly the situation where "open/locked" should be the default, and you should be able to unlock "automatic" as a spell or potion or defence or construct or something (I'm leaning towards spell). this way you are basically upgrading whatever doors you want to an automatic mode, a slap could disable the enchantment/upgrade.
It could be something you have unlocked by default but costs mana to activate.
 

AvatarIII

Huntress
WFTO Founder
Apr 20, 2012
1,713
759
570
33
Worthing, West Sussex
#27
It could be something you have unlocked by default but costs mana to activate.
Maybe, but I quite like the idea of it being something you have to choose to unlock, and use a sin for. simply because if you have it there is very little reason not to use it, everyone would know that their enemy has access to the ability, and at that point it might as well be just another mode for doors, which brings up Valtiel's point of either some doors having the ability and some not, OR all doors having the ability even if it is useless.
 
Jan 3, 2013
3,245
739
495
31
#28
I feel like you guys try to make doors super complex when in truth they should function just like doors did in DK Games, except for Midas Door. Midas Door should have an active/inactive state during which it either work or just remain open to all.

There's no other use of the door, other than keep your creatures away from certain places or delay the enemy. Do not expect that enemy players will mindlessly push without destroying the door first, it simply won't happen.
 

mishko

Witch Doctor
WFTO Founder
Feb 27, 2012
866
238
440
25
Michigan
#29
I feel like you guys try to make doors super complex when in truth they should function just like doors did in DK Games, except for Midas Door. Midas Door should have an active/inactive state during which it either work or just remain open to all.

There's no other use of the door, other than keep your creatures away from certain places or delay the enemy. Do not expect that enemy players will mindlessly push without destroying the door first, it simply won't happen.
I agree that they should function like they did in the DK games but at the same time I like the always open mode for trapping and separating groups.
 
Jan 3, 2013
3,245
739
495
31
#30
I agree that they should function like they did in the DK games but at the same time I like the always open mode for trapping and separating groups.
In this case we have an issue - why creatures would ignore enemy doors? I feel like many would ask for option to break enemy doors, rather than allowing creatures ignore them.
 

Psycix

Dryad
WFTO Founder
Jan 9, 2013
834
305
395
#31
If you want to do the lock-in tactic, step it up and build the door (or wall) by dropping crates on it or with a ritual. Eventually no smart player will walk through an open door. They will be useless.
 
Aug 28, 2014
94
41
165
34
#33
I don't think the automatic mode of doors is enough of an advantage that it needs to lock mana to be balanced. Besides, a defense that only locks mana some of the time is confusing, and may not be easy to program.

Just give the doors three states. It's easy to explain, easy to illustrate, and it's a solution that works across the board.
 

mishko

Witch Doctor
WFTO Founder
Feb 27, 2012
866
238
440
25
Michigan
#34
I don't necessarily agree with the devs that doors working the way they did in the old game was OP because there could be lots of ways to balance it like what we are discussing. I'm glad Simburger is willing to look back at this after release if the new doors don't work out as well.
 
Mar 3, 2014
74
22
115
29
Slovenia
#35
That makes sense for the automatic door mode to lock mana and it would balance it.
Uh... but then I, for one, just couldn't shake the feeling of wasting the mana pool -- a valuable and finite resource -- for a door mode.

It just doesn't seem to be worth it, and in the end I'd be compelled to just deal with it, with the result being the same: me not enjoying the door mechanics.

Honestly I think that regular doors should be like in DK2 by deafult (automatic) and special doors, like the gold-thingy-doors, are to be manually switched since they behave like traps and they have an impact on gameplay that doesn't directly translate to blocking of passage, eg. losing gold. This also has more consistency I think.

It opens up some interesting gameplay mechanics, sure, but it also significantly increases micromanagement- and that's something that's supposed to separate DMG's from RTS games.

Instead, the "closing the door behind invaders", trapping role is already sufficiently filled in by the spike trap, is it not? Come to think of it, the raised spike trap also prevents allies from passing if I'm not mistaken. Granted, the trap has a mana cost (so that basically makes the above balancing suggestion obsolete), but it also has double functionality, making building doors somewhat suboptimal.

And the door can actually just do what the player wants them to do. To grant passage to allies and to bar enemies from entering. That is to say, a function that is different from building a dirt wall or springing a trap when a path needs blocking, then tearing the wall down or setting up the trap when passage is needed. And a function that is expected from doors.
 
Last edited:
Likes: GummiBear

Psycix

Dryad
WFTO Founder
Jan 9, 2013
834
305
395
#36
Yeah, the whole idea of a door is to control who has access to what.
Blocking off enemies can indeed be achieved in many different ways, and the current system of doors doesn't filter between friend or foe unless intensively micro'd, making them rather useless.
 

AvatarIII

Huntress
WFTO Founder
Apr 20, 2012
1,713
759
570
33
Worthing, West Sussex
#37
Uh... but then I, for one, just couldn't shake the feeling of wasting the mana pool -- a valuable and finite resource -- for a door mode.

It just doesn't seem to be worth it, and in the end I'd be compelled to just deal with it, with the result being the same: me not enjoying the door mechanics.
how about a one off mana or gold fee to upgrade the door then, rather than mana being locked?
 

Psycix

Dryad
WFTO Founder
Jan 9, 2013
834
305
395
#38
It wouldn't solve the situation. The problem is that people expect doors to work in their benefit when they build them, and the doors don't do that at all until managed. Adding the upgrade thing solves only half the problem as you still have to manually apply this on every door.
 

AvatarIII

Huntress
WFTO Founder
Apr 20, 2012
1,713
759
570
33
Worthing, West Sussex
#40
It wouldn't solve the situation. The problem is that people expect doors to work in their benefit when they build them, and the doors don't do that at all until managed. Adding the upgrade thing solves only half the problem as you still have to manually apply this on every door.
not on every door, only on doors you want it to be applied to.

It's also a micromanagement tax, which I personally despise.
What is wrong with micromanagement tax? when there are 2 options on how to do something the more powerful option should be more expensive, and forgoing micromanagement is pretty powerful.
 
Top Bottom