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The Seven Virtues vs The Seven Deadly Sins [Mechanic/Other]

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GoAwayMyDonut

Spirit
WFTO Backer
Mar 1, 2013
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#1
I was thinking that "if" the heroes were to be a playable race in War For The Overworld that they might follow the seven virtues of man for their spell trees. This would be the opposite of the Underlord skill tree as they are following some of the seven deadly sins in order to gain spells and rituals. Also maybe in a future update or expansion, if it wasn't too convoluted, that extra skill trees following the seven deadly sins, as well as the seven virtues of man would be integrated for a greater range of diversity in the game so that it doesn't feel like the same experience each time, but rather a new game each time you play.
Of course the heroes would have to have rooms similar, yet less evil in order to follow these paths and have a chance against the Underlord. Also during each level that could be added in a future expansion there could be levels with a working hero opposition or just some goodly wandering heroes ready to strike if you were to tunnel in the wrong direction. Again this would add a greater range dynamics to this already awesome game!

For example:
Wrath vs. Patience
Greed vs. Charity
Sloth vs. Diligence

If the heroes were to become a playable race I think that the seven virtues of man would definitely be a good equivalent yet opposite way of integrating spells into the heroes arsenal. Also maybe instead of rituals, the heroes would be able to do prayers or something along those lines in order to combat the forces of evil....
 

Mozared

Juggernaut
WFTO Founder
Feb 17, 2013
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#2
I reckon this is something for far in the future, but it's a neat idea nevertheless that pretty much presents itself. Good thinking!
 
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Enjou

Ember Demon
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Jan 10, 2012
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#3
I really don't want "seven deadly sins" content. It's cliche, and it's sourced from a real world religion to boot. Just because we have three of them in the Veins of Evil doesn't mean we need more. Keep in mind that many religions across the world have their own variants with more or less 'sins' listed - Buddhism has Kleshas that vary from three to ten depending on which tradition you're dealing with, Hinduism has the six Arishadvargas, and the seven deadly sins themselves were distilled from the Eight Evil Thoughts which themselves could sorted into three types which are similar to our own three.

Given that the WFTO universe is an original one that has its own goodly church, I'd rather the "Three Veins of Evil" be the in universe equivalent to the seven deadly sins. I would agree that the hero faction could easily have their own "Three Virtues of Righteousness" or something like that to counter it. The counters I'd want would be something along these lines:

Wrath vs. Justice
Greed vs. Temperance
Sloth vs. Discipline
 
Likes: Amon
Jan 3, 2013
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#5
If heroes will be playable they could have so-called ''counter-veins of Good(ness) as listed above.

But that's rather too early to discuss.
 
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theMarg0r

Dryad
WFTO Backer
Dec 28, 2012
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#6
The metaphor's incomplete, damnit!
How many times do I have to tell you to knock it off? :p Sloth, Greed, and Wrath. They're cool names, and they DON'T HAVE to correspond completely to the real-world Seven Sins. Remember the Kickstarter video? The one where Richard Ridings talks about "The three vile veins of Sloth, Greed, and Wrath?" Yeah, maybe these concepts have significance in the game's lore. Maybe we should just stop talking about the seven deadly sins/seven virtues dichotomy altogether. In the context of this game, it's a false one. :)
 
Likes: Amon

Necroscourge

Dwarven Worker
May 22, 2013
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#7
This is a game, not a religion. We can't just ignore the parts that people disagree with.

The devs themselves admitted they sort of are looking for a better way to do it anyway, so try not to discourage people coming up with ideas or trying to improve the game, thank you.
 

Enjou

Ember Demon
WFTO Backer
Jan 10, 2012
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#8
I don't like the Sins theming. Its hokey, and simply just does not apply to the game (The metaphor's incomplete, damnit!). Thankfully, when we get a good look at the games lore we should be able to suggest better names that tie in with the WFTO canon.
Excuse me, but how do you know they don't tie into the WFTO canon? Are you informed about the world lore in some way we aren't? As I said above, the "Three Veins of Evil" could easily be the in-world Church's equivalent to the Seven Deadly Sins, so there isn't necessarily an incomplete metaphor here.

This is a game, not a religion. We can't just ignore the parts that people disagree with.

The devs themselves admitted they sort of are looking for a better way to do it anyway, so try not to discourage people coming up with ideas or trying to improve the game, thank you.
The devs were talking about possibly renaming "Sins" in reference to the points you spend to unlock aspects in the Veins of Evil being called "Sins", not renaming the Veins themselves. I don't think most people have a problem with the names for the Veins of Evil being Sloth, Greed, and Wrath, so there's not really any discussion about changing them.
 
Likes: theMarg0r
Jan 3, 2013
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#9
This is a game, not a religion. We can't just ignore the parts that people disagree with.

The devs themselves admitted they sort of are looking for a better way to do it anyway, so try not to discourage people coming up with ideas or trying to improve the game, thank you.
Just because Wrath, Sloth and Greed are deadly sins doesn't mean they can't be used in the game. If devs can come up with completely different names for Veins, I don't mind, but right now, things are fine as they are.
 
Jan 7, 2012
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#10
This is a game, not a religion. We can't just ignore the parts that people disagree with.

As with the concerns about pig eating- religious people who are too bigoted to bear the use of some loose paralleles to their very own worldviews, wont play this game anyway, because the game is about being evil and stuff for selfish reasons,(world domination)
People who arent moderate enough for tollerating some little inspirations in real life worldviews/mythology/rites/cultures didnt deseve this game anyway : )
 
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GoAwayMyDonut

Spirit
WFTO Backer
Mar 1, 2013
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#11
I wasn't suggesting this in order to refer to religion or spark a religious debate but rather generate the idea that there is a possibility that the heroes could be played in the future and if they were it could change the dynamics of how this game could become even more competitive. If this was something that was implemented the heroes would need something to make them unique. And would give a way for us to out think the other player. For instance Starcraft has the Zerg, protoss, and Terran. Each have their own unique play style and do have some similarities such as more powerful units, but each have their own strategy. For instance Zerg use less resources, terran more, and Protoss the most. These things effect the power of the units. Anyway the point im trying to make is that people borrow ideas from other sources to make a great product. Is it cliche? Yes, but isn't any story we see today, it's always good vs evil. Besides wrath, greed, and sloth sound intimidating especially with richard ridings narroration.
 

Enjou

Ember Demon
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Jan 10, 2012
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#12
I wasn't suggesting this in order to refer to religion or spark a religious debate but rather generate the idea that there is a possibility that the heroes could be played in the future and if they were it could change the dynamics of how this game could become even more competitive. If this was something that was implemented the heroes would need something to make them unique. And would give a way for us to out think the other player. For instance Starcraft has the Zerg, protoss, and Terran. Each have their own unique play style and do have some similarities such as more powerful units, but each have their own strategy. For instance Zerg use less resources, terran more, and Protoss the most. These things effect the power of the units. Anyway the point im trying to make is that people borrow ideas from other sources to make a great product. Is it cliche? Yes, but isn't any story we see today, it's always good vs evil. Besides wrath, greed, and sloth sound intimidating especially with richard ridings narroration.
It makes perfect sense that the hero side might have their own tech tree - I'm not criticizing that notion and support the notion. There will likely be a hero campaign DLC, which may add full hero play to multiplayer as well, so fleshing out that faction more would be great.

What I find cliche is the notion of having a full 'seven deadly sins'. Just because we have Wrath, Greed, and Sloth in the Veins of Evil doesn't mean we need to add additional Veins for Pride, Gluttony, Envy, and Lust. My mention of other religions was to show that other religions have similar but different lists, and that it isn't necessary to use the standard seven associated with Christianity. In terms of lore I think it would make perfect sense for the Church in the WFTO universe to have their own list of evils, and that the Veins of Evil could be that. I also think the suggestion of having an opposing list of virtues is also a good one, and would make sense from both a lore and gameplay perspective.
 

GoAwayMyDonut

Spirit
WFTO Backer
Mar 1, 2013
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#13
It makes perfect sense that the hero side might have their own tech tree - I'm not criticizing that notion and support the notion. There will likely be a hero campaign DLC, which may add full hero play to multiplayer as well, so fleshing out that faction more would be great.

What I find cliche is the notion of having a full 'seven deadly sins'. Just because we have Wrath, Greed, and Sloth in the Veins of Evil doesn't mean we need to add additional Veins for Pride, Gluttony, Envy, and Lust. My mention of other religions was to show that other religions have similar but different lists, and that it isn't necessary to use the standard seven associated with Christianity. In terms of lore I think it would make perfect sense for the Church in the WFTO universe to have their own list of evils, and that the Veins of Evil could be that. I also think the suggestion of having an opposing list of virtues is also a good one, and would make sense from both a lore and gameplay perspective.
Ok I definitely see what you mean, thats a valid point, and would most likely be too complex to add more than just three anyway... Simplicity yet diversity if that makes sense.
 
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