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[Underlord Creature] Rogue

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Nutter

Frost Weaver
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#1
Key Stats
Highlight: A Fairly Weak Scout/Fighter unit whose true use comes after a little training, he is especially suited for possession and use of his various "talents" to cause problems for your enemies.
Faction: Underlord
Type: Intelligent
Role: Scout, Melee Fighter, Saboteur
Acquired By: Portal, Requires a a lair, large treasure and lots of gold reserves plus somewhere to train
Basic Attack: Melee, Slash Attacks
Offensive Power: Moderate (Strong for first attack when undiscovered)
Defensive Power: Relatively Weak (he is better suited to avoiding fighting outright)
Resistances: Average against all,
Movement: Medium (Faster with his passive abilities)
Work: Scouting, Training, Sabotage, Manufacturing Traps
Entertainment: Gets drunk in the Tavern or explores your dungeon.
Special Needs: Will often wander off in search of your enemies so you need to keep an eye on him
Upgrades: The damage and stun duration of his Throw Dagger attack increases as he levels up

Traits
Undercover: A Rogue will not be immediately identified as an enemy unless he uses an ability or attacks an enemy, once discovered he will remain discovered until he leaves the enemy's area of influence. He will also immediately be discovered if an enemy underlord tries to pick him up.
Sneaky: A Rogue moves silently and gains a small movement speed bonus when on unclaimed or enemy land if he is undiscovered.
Saboteur: Can disable certain traps, pick locks on doors and sabotage other underlords dungeons.

Abilities
Stab [Level 1] : Stabs a single enemy with a Melee attack doing extra damage if he is undercover. The Rogue will automatically become discovered upon attacking an enemy.


Throw Dagger [Level 2]: Throws a small poisoned dagger at an enemy a short distance away, stunning the enemy for a few seconds allowing it to be attacked without raising an alarm. It will still cause the Rogue to become discovered if the enemy unit is not killed before it is unstunned or if the rogue is seen using the ability by another enemy. It can also damage doors and traps from a distance without causing the rogue to be discovered as long as he does so undetected. Quick to recharge with low cool down.

Pick Lock [Level 3] : The Rogue picks the lock of an enemy underlord's door allowing him to pass through it undetected as long as he is undiscovered, picking a lock in the presence of an enemy creature will automatically cause him to be discovered. The door will basically change to "Open to All" until it is toggled again by the enemy underlord (who has persumably noticed he has a rogue wandering his halls)

Disarm Trap [Level 5] : The Rogue gains the ability to disable certain defenses/traps from a short distance away, the trap would then not work/activate on it's next trigger (I.E If a rogue disarmed an alarm trap, the alarm would not sound when he then walked past it) - The list of traps he could disable would have to be balanced of course.

Sabotage [Level 6] : The rogue causes some kind of negative effect to the room he is currently in (assuming he is on enemy territory and is undiscovered) for certain rooms, this would then cause him to become discovered in any enemy was in the same room. This would also have an incredibly long cooldown so would basically act as a one shot per visit to the enemies dungeon unless you could remain undiscovered for a long time.
Effects would include things like;
Creating Himself a Lair in the enemies lair (taking up a space and helping him blend in),
Stealing Gold from an enemy treasure (which he would keep),
Poisoning the enemy's Micro Piglets causing them all to die (and stop new ones spawning for a short time)
Disrupting Research in the Archive (The next sin point will take longer to research)
Destroy Blueprints in the Foundary (Defenses would take longer to build for the next X defenses)

Shadowblend [Level 8]: The Rogue blends with the shadows becoming invisible and gaining a speed bonus for 5 seconds if discovered or 8 seconds if undiscovered (this does not cause the rogue to become undiscovered again if he is already discovered). He also stops being targeted by any units/spells/abilities that are currently targeting him​

Flavour
Appearance: A Crouched Hooded Human/Elvish character wearing dark dyed leather armour
(See images below)
Lair Appearance : A small hastily throw together bed/matress where the rogue can take an occasional nap
Likes: Sneaking Around, Exploring, Gold
Dislikes: Being stuck in one room, having nothing to do, not being paid
Behaviour: Tries to explore enemy territory whenever possibly, only returns to collect pay. Will steal food from enemy territory rather than return to your dungeon if possible.
Anger Reaction: Sabotages one of your rooms.
Mentor Quote: Well well, look what we have here... A rogue has entered your dungeon. He might not look like much now but train him well and you'll see that brute force isn't always the only way to access your enemies dungeons.

Rogue appearance references

(The pouches across his chest would be replaced with throwing daggers)

An new take on the DK Classic with a bit of a new game mechanic with the whole, undercover/discovered thing. Basically your rogue can wander through enemy territory and get up to mischief without being discovered as long as he doesn't do anything to draw attention to himself... like attack an enemy or poison the micropiglets in front of an entire army of hungry enemies.

This would of course be very well suited to using him as a possessed creature so you could better judge when to use his abilities without getting caught. He'd also do well as an leading attacking force, disabling doors and traps so your creatures can follow him in. He could also be seen as somewhat of an Anti-Sloth unit which would probably make him best suited to the Wrath vein.
Sorry if something like this has been suggested before, I looked through the suggested stuff list but its so long now that it's hard to know for sure.​
 
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Fireeye

Augre
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Dec 30, 2012
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#2
I think that the idea of using the rogue in combination with direct control to spy out enemy bases is quite interesting. However, at the same time I wonder if many players would actually use it, given the large amount of micro-management this would take. The Sabotage ability could redeem this, but it would require very careful balancing - i.e. the respective effects for sabotaging a lair seems more of a nuisance than a threat, whereas sabotaging the library and the workshop seems like a considerably powerful option.

Another question concerning balance would stem from his ability to unlock doors. This naturally doesn't seem like much on the first glance, but even the few seconds a locked door may buy you are valuable. As such, I would either suggest that only the rogue itself may walk through unlocked doors, or that this ability has a relatively long cooldown.
 
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Nutter

Frost Weaver
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#3
Well in response to the lair sabotage being "underpowered" or less useful, think of it this way, why would you have a rogue walking round your dungeon if it didn't have a lair, unless it wasn't yours. By creating a lair, a human player would see this and it would help reinforce the illusion that it is a part of that army rather than a spy and therefore decrease the chance of it getting discovered and therefore increase the chances of it being able to hang around and sabotage everything else.

In regards to the doors, yes the door would stay unlocked... but only until the enemy underlord relocked it (with persuambly a single toggle click). If the rogue was leading an army then ok you might lose a few vital seconds when he picks your door rather than having to break it down... but thats kind of a smaller issue compared to the huge army of creatures following him. Plus an underlord with quick reflexes could relock the door with just rogue through it, trapping him on one side as easy prey for his units who have now clearly discovered him.

The way I see it is, if you weren't controlling the rogue, he'd wander around scouting the enemy dungeon and commiting the "smalller" acts of sabotage assuming he was high enough level, i.e he'd make himself a lair then steal small amounts of gold, etc with only a small chance to do one of the "higher risk sabotage" actions after all why would he risk getting himself caught when he can happily wander around stealing gold and getting rich.

There would also be a short delay before his pick lock ability opened the door (and stronger doors would take longer to pick, and the strongest might be unpickable) so an observant underlord would spot a rogue pausing by a door instead of walking straight through like his other creatures and detect him by clicking him. Basically leaving the rogue a sitting duck in the middle of the dungeon.

Think of it as being similar to the Fly from DK but rather than just buzzing in there and getting itself killed. It'll actually do something useful by subtly messing with your opponents dungeon.
 

Nutter

Frost Weaver
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#4
There was a lot more interest and response last time I posted a suggestion, I wonder if that's just because the suggestions forum is a little less looked at now some of the initial excitement has died down, or because I didn't provide any concept art this time?
 

Lord of Riva

The Lord
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Dec 29, 2012
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#5
hmmm the Problem with your suggestion is probably that it was posted on a Sunday, i wasnt here for example ;)

Okay: Possession, Sabotage : im not sure if this can be balanced, firstly if you can scout the enemy dungeon without real danger it would make spells like Prophecy useless, furthermore we already have a Dedicated scout (the Occulus) which is Probably pretty inferior to a unit that can run freely through enemy territory. Trap Disable was used in DK 2 and it was Broken as hell, tbh honest im not sure HOW it could be balanced though, we have a whole skill tree Dedicated to Traps and one Unit may break everything a Sloth player has build to defend himself.

well adding this
 

Nutter

Frost Weaver
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#6
Okay: Possession, Sabotage : im not sure if this can be balanced, firstly if you can scout the enemy dungeon without real danger it would make spells like Prophecy useless, furthermore we already have a Dedicated scout (the Occulus) which is Probably pretty inferior to a unit that can run freely through enemy territory. Trap Disable was used in DK 2 and it was Broken as hell, tbh honest im not sure HOW it could be balanced though, we have a whole skill tree Dedicated to Traps and one Unit may break everything a Sloth player has build to defend himself.
It's not THAT Broken, the trap disabling is temporary and will only affect certain traps (i.e the cheap, low level ones with the higher level traps being immune to it), i see it more as a "he disables the alarm trap just long enough to sneak past" type thing rather than he's destroyed a trap with a single ability.

The Lock Picking takes a while (which can get him caught) and takes longer depending how strong the door is (a wooden door would take much less time than an iron door to use DK examples, with a magic door being unpickable). It can also easily be undone by checking/relocking a door once you realise you've got a rogue running loose in your dungeon. The sabotage is admittedly very powerful but is more than likely going to blow the rogue's cover and probably get him killed if used incorrectly (I mean how often is a foundry or an archive or even a slaughterpen going to be totally empty for him to sabotage it without getting caught? And even a treasury you'd have to pick your moment carefully in case the underlord or an enemy creature is watching since there would be a visual cue - A pile of gold vanishing or something)

And he's a relatively squishy unit with low health and not much in terms of damage output, so he'd most likely die if he does get caught in the enemy base. He has to be trained to level 6 before he can use the sabotage ability (by which point the enemy underlord should probably have adequate defenses prepared)

Plus (and this is my main reason for saying he's not that unbalanced) you can unmask an enemy rogue in your base simply by trying to pick him up! and once he is in enemy territory, since hes out of your area of influence he can't be picked up/healed. If you suspect you've got a rogue in your base it's not a big deal to have a quick look round and click on all the rogues just to be sure is it?

This idea that you can walk through the enemy territory without any danger isn't really fair. He can be detected in numerous ways;
  • Getting caught picking doors, disabling traps or sabotaging rooms by any of the enemies creatures.
  • Attacking enemies
  • Encountering an enemy rogue who will recognise him as an enemy regardless of his undercover status,
  • Being Clicked by or the target of a spell by the enemy underlord.
So Yes, he has some pretty powerful abilities, but he'd got to get into a decent position to make good use of them. And a decent underlord should have a good enough idea about what creatures he has under his employ to be able to tell that he's got too many rogues wandering around especially since your own rogues should be out scouting rather than wandering around your own dungeon, even more so when pigs starting dying or gold goes mysteriously missing. I mean I was also thinking the Mentor would say something too when sabotage occurs similar to DK's "Keeper all of your prisoners have escaped" such as;

"Underlord, all of your micropiglets have mysteriously died, you might want to check if you have some kind of pest problem"
or
"Underlord I've just been checking the treasury records, it appears someone might be stealing from you"
or
"An Augre seems to have lost the blueprints for some of the traps, you haven't seen them have you?"

Stuff that could seem like easter egg type stuff but is actually a subtle warning that a rogue is in your base and up to no good

Although I do concede that maybe there should be a longer cooldown for the Trap disabling and Lock Picking to stop him spamming it all over the place. I didn't really think that bit through.

Having clarified some stuff do you still think it's incredibly overpowered?
 
Jan 7, 2012
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#7
If there will be invisible making abillitys, there should also be a bunch of creatures who can detect invisible creatures. (beasts through scents, ghosts, vampires usw.)
Trap Disabling could be linked to a simple dice role like in d&d or a procentual chance which increases when the rogue levels up.
If he fails, the trap gets activated.

I like his abbilitys, but the units appearance itself is just as damn boring as the rogue from dk2. I would like them in the ranks of the empires as resocialized criminals who turned to a life as an adventurer, but I wouldnt like to see him in an underlords dungeon.
Simply because there are more interesting humanoids like drows, lizardmans, alps u.s.w.

How the Oculus could be different AND useful if this scout is around is another question.
 

Nutter

Frost Weaver
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#8
Well my suggestions aren't really necessarily stuff that should go into the vanilla game, they're probably more like suggestions for extra units or stuff that could be added as mods or extra content later. Or alternatively the Rogue could just be a later game scouting unit in the same way the Chunder is early game manufacturer and Augre is late game manufacturer.

I'd also like to think that eventually I can make a "Nutter's Creature Pack" mod with a bunch of my ideas for creatures that add some spice to the game (assuming the dev's don't cherry pick any of them to add themselves)

I'd also quite like to do a Nutter's Trap Pack mod too :D if I can come up with some cool traps.

EDIT - The ideas of a trap activating if the rogue fails to disable it properly would definitely help balance it assuming it needed further balancing.
 
May 30, 2013
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#9
I hated rogues in DK 2, but it doesn't mean they can't be cool. While stealthy aspects can be hard to implement, it could add some serious tactics in game (stealth rush to dungeon core with rogues gogogogog).
 
#10
"I" for one, REALLY like this! just imagine: a guard walks around, the rogue walks out of the shadows, and stabs him in the back, then the rest of your army comes out, and follows him to the door, which he picks. THEN your army RUNS inside, taking everybody off guard, while the rogue backstabs enemy's who are busy with attacking/fleeing!
 
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