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WFTO Wednesday #107: UI Updates, Unit Shields & More

Skorp

Gargoyle
Feb 1, 2014
290
96
300
24
#2
Question, what are the shield icons in the warband menu? Is it for ordering units to stay close to their flags?

Also, why are the archive and beast den hidden in the sin tree?
 

Tilen

Priestess
Mar 3, 2014
74
22
200
30
Slovenia
#4
I really like the UI changes! IMO it is just immensely better than the previous iteration. One good point of feedback was regarding the unit shields or the now-flowers. It would be a good idea to have the heatlh bars a different colour than the center of it. I figure having it the same colour might make someone have to squint their eyes or zoom in just to be clear on status.

The Veins of evil I never really was sold on, although I do see its strategic and tactical implications. Along with the potions, rituals and warbands, although they add a lot of player control, they also, in my mind, take away from the DK feeling by adding micromanagement, which I think takes it closer to what an RTS looks like and not a "DMG" as a variation of the "God game" genre. This includes the way dungeon rooms unlock. It's no more a thing of progress but rather option. Something I liked better in the... well previous iterations, shall we say.

That said I am very pleased with the progress shown, the attention to detail and community feedback. I am also very eager to get to play the full game very soon. On top of that I can't wait to be finally able to hear the full glory of Ridings' commentary along with all the proper dungeon sounds and animations.

Good work!

edit: P.S.: for what it's worth: I like the gray UI colour. I feel it's neat and it accomplishes what the devs set out to achieve with it. It doesn't detract the player's attention.

edit2: will the sin points stop accumulating after having unlocked everything? And does that then make the library obsolete?
 
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Likes: Cultist Joris

mishko

Matriarch
WFTO Founder
Feb 27, 2012
866
238
435
26
Michigan
#5
I really like the UI changes! IMO it is just immensely better than the previous iteration. One good point of feedback was regarding the unit shields or the now-flowers. It would be a good idea to have the heatlh bars a different colour than the center of it. I figure having it the same colour might make someone have to squint their eyes or zoom in just to be clear on status.

The Veins of evil I never really was sold on, although I do see its strategic and tactical implications. Along with the potions, rituals and warbands, although they add a lot of player control, they also, in my mind, take away from the DK feeling by adding micromanagement, which I think takes it closer to what an RTS looks like and not a "DMG" as a variation of the "God game" genre. This includes the way dungeon rooms unlock. It's no more a thing of progress but rather option. Something I liked better in the... well previous iterations, shall we say.

That said I am very pleased with the progress shown, the attention to detail and community feedback. I am also very eager to get to play the full game very soon. On top of that I can't wait to be finally able to hear the full glory of Ridings' commentary along with all the proper dungeon sounds and animations.

Good work!

edit: P.S.: for what it's worth: I like the gray UI colour. I feel it's neat and it accomplishes what the devs set out to achieve with it. It doesn't detract the player's attention.

edit2: will the sin points stop accumulating after having unlocked everything? And does that then make the library obsolete?
Sin points will be used to summon a super unit and possibly some other use as well.
 
Likes: Tilen
Nov 13, 2013
634
257
375
22
#6
I really like the UI changes! IMO it is just immensely better than the previous iteration. One good point of feedback was regarding the unit shields or the now-flowers. It would be a good idea to have the heatlh bars a different colour than the center of it. I figure having it the same colour might make someone have to squint their eyes or zoom in just to be clear on status.

The Veins of evil I never really was sold on, although I do see its strategic and tactical implications. Along with the potions, rituals and warbands, although they add a lot of player control, they also, in my mind, take away from the DK feeling by adding micromanagement, which I think takes it closer to what an RTS looks like and not a "DMG" as a variation of the "God game" genre. This includes the way dungeon rooms unlock. It's no more a thing of progress but rather option. Something I liked better in the... well previous iterations, shall we say.

That said I am very pleased with the progress shown, the attention to detail and community feedback. I am also very eager to get to play the full game very soon. On top of that I can't wait to be finally able to hear the full glory of Ridings' commentary along with all the proper dungeon sounds and animations.

Good work!

edit: P.S.: for what it's worth: I like the gray UI colour. I feel it's neat and it accomplishes what the devs set out to achieve with it. It doesn't detract the player's attention.

edit2: will the sin points stop accumulating after having unlocked everything? And does that then make the library obsolete?
Regarding sin points, it is planned for it to cost a sin to summon the super units at the end of the veins, so in the very unlikely event you unlock everything (It would take somewhere between 2-3 hours of serious research to do that) you still have a good late-game sin sink :)

Also, Agree on the flowers, I think that the health bar bits of it should be a bit brighter then the center part, since they are the most important to know the state of ASAP for healing/getting out of combat.
 

Noontide

Designer / Community Manager
Brightrock Games
Dec 8, 2012
2,173
1,785
665
Brighton, UK
#7
Question, what are the shield icons in the warband menu? Is it for ordering units to stay close to their flags?

Also, why are the archive and beast den hidden in the sin tree?
1. The "Shields" are actually flags, when a flag is placed the button lights up and you can cancel the flag with that action. Right clicking on the actual Warband will take you to that Warband's flag, something that all UI elements will now do. :)

2. Just to demonstrate the fact that certain aspects can be locked and what that looks like.

edit2: will the sin points stop accumulating after having unlocked everything? And does that then make the library obsolete?
As Antking has pointed out, Super units can be summoned with Sin Points so there's always something to use them for. In addition Artefacts are identified within the Archive.
 

Haze

Priestess
Mar 31, 2013
91
17
200
36
Moscow, Russia
#10
First thing I want to say is that game release should be delayed for a month at least. This last-mile-problem won't do any good. Everything may be finished up to date, but it is reasonable just to wander aimlessly testing, thinking about gameplay elements, recollecting backers' reviews and notes on playability or convenience and such. A few bugs will show themselves usually with this approach - start a competition named "break the game" (scripts or walkthrough logic or whatever) (between old backers also?), abuse possible unbalanced development strategies or so.

Kinda - devs, why don't you spend a couple of weeks just relaxing and possibly thinking about some omitted ideas. You deserved it, and a bit of relaxation may bring some perspective future modification ideas or campaign tweaks to fruition.

...and I have to highlight, that WFTO for sure has great graphical designers. Ready to repeat this as many times as necessary. Outstanding.
Even about unit shields - they noticed, that leftover life petals are more important for players than the shield itself, so as I see, shields' centers are now darker, great gradient (+allows us to see unit level clearer). About rooms design and such - I don't have enough words to describe their beauty and style.
Even, uhh, the Chunder looks OK from above, and seems funny as a unit (although in a few youtube videos about earlier versions he didn't go to a training room on his own and even without blueprints, without any orders for work immediately started aimlessly hitting an anvil with his hammerhead).

Don't have access to 0.7 now, but something personal on the spot.
1) Game (both campaign and skirmish) should have speed regulation slider and possibly ability to pre-set common speed level for starting a multiplayer maps.

2) Tunnels and their borders (dug out or not) should be marked a bit brighter, because when dungeon overall looks dark, it is not easy to distinguish colors - possibly only a gamma problem on some screens. Anyway, green squares ripple in my visual memory all the time: hey, it's like bright dots flying around, trying to warp vision. Why it should be dots on a dark background??? :confused: looks so dazzling from above, that it becomes hard to distinguish my tunnels between dots (small squares used for highlighting claimed tiles). Maybe we need some optional gradient border highlighs? Or simplified visual scheme of terrain for slow GPUs?

3) The sound of placing a rally flag should be played only once at its setup - again, some youtube vids already made me tired from repeatedly played setup sound, when both AI and player re-aimed their forces all the time.

+ the sound of "...has entered your dungeon", loud and emotional, becomes really annoying! maybe a few varieties will help? "cultist arrived" - short silent whisper, but still informative.

As about AI - we'll see. But there is one extremely important thing about gameplay I definitely know: when clicking on overall number of imps for picking some, those carrying corpse or unconscious enemy/ally SHOULD NOT BE PICK-ABLE. Their work is too important for our cause and must be never interrupted.

UI hint: want to give players more control of their forces in any battle, where many unit shields hide behind each other and you can't understand, who is where and how is his health?
By pressing some button - make unit shields PROJECTED on your screen (directly from unit position) near each other, so that they're not icons on top of every unit, but non-overlapping same-sized shield indicators near each other - just like desktop icons, i mean, but very close to each other + creature symbol in the center of each + possibility to pick them by ckicking on according shield in this mode.
 
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Jul 24, 2013
42
13
195
25
#11
Maybe it's just me but those extremely green imps. They just seem too colorful especially in contrast to their surroundings.
 

Cultist Joris

Huntress
WFTO Founder
Dec 30, 2012
1,555
840
570
26
Belgium
#12
Maybe it's just me but those extremely green imps. They just seem too colorful especially in contrast to their surroundings.
I can see your problem, but on the other hand imps should be clearly visible at all times because they already move quite fast to begin with. On top of that it is very easy to recognise enemy imps like that.

As about AI - we'll see. But there is one extremely important thing about gameplay I definitely know: when clicking on overall number of imps for picking some, those carrying corpse or unconscious enemy/ally SHOULD NOT BE PICK-ABLE. Their work is too important for our cause and must be never interrupted.
This!
 
Likes: Haze
Jan 3, 2013
3,246
741
495
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#13
Lack of potential 6P support, proper management over Empire ( for custom campaign ), lack of any potential for Empire AI ( custom maps cry hard ) and, as it seems, lack of Empire Party/Units manipulations seriously diminish the modding potential of this game. Considering the fact we won't get something like DK2 Editor, I sincerely hope devs will consider adding support for these things after release - these features offer more depth into gameplay and custom campaign creation.
 
Jan 3, 2013
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#15
To clarify - all of those things (bar 6p support) are available in the internal editor. If we find a way to bring that to the players, it will all be possible.
Then please do that at some time.

So far all my expectations were met except these things. I do not expect 3v3 multiplayer due to netcode complications ( though it would be awesome ), but I hope for 3v3 Single Player, since this feature was so much demanded in DK2 once Editor got out and people began adding the 5th Keeper.

The Empire AI comes from DK1 Heroes mechanics experience mostly since I believe it was a planned feature but got scrapped for some reason ( though it's remnants are still there and can be accessed partly ). The reason why I propose some sort of AI for Empire ( should be available through Editor, so only those who know what they need could use it ) is Heroes in DK1/DK2 felt like toy solders without any tactics at all ( only in Keeper FX you may see heroes retreating when outnumbered or wounded ).

I thought of making Empire as custom NPC who could maybe even have some sort of it's own AI personality, and play important part on the map. Being only as alternative source of fresh units will be dull and boring, send-to-kill-through-all-traps feature is common and not thrilling anymore.
 

Skorp

Gargoyle
Feb 1, 2014
290
96
300
24
#16
The problem is that since the empire doesn't build anything there isn't much to do for the AI. I can think of scouting and sending all the troops if they detect an underlord or to defend their territory and mining gold for payday but there isn't much strategy to do. What do you think could be an interesting AI?
 
Jan 3, 2013
3,246
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#17
The problem is that since the empire doesn't build anything there isn't much to do for the AI. I can think of scouting and sending all the troops if they detect an underlord or to defend their territory and mining gold for payday but there isn't much strategy to do. What do you think could be an interesting AI?
Lets see.

1. Empire could steal Gateways. I don't know if such mechanic will be implemented, but the idea is let them replenish their army ( cap restriction and room requirements would apply, if Empire would had no rooms at all, claimed Gateway would only attract gnarlings ). This would motivate players fight for portals that are near Empire's territory sooner.

2. Empire could steal Gold and let other heroes carry it. Basically if there will be a large chunk of gold reserves and there would be any digger, it could go after some time ( conditions are up for map maker himself ) and dig out that chunk of gold. Then it could return with all stolen gold and drop it near Inhibitor/Treasury where all heroes would go and pick some. This would make Empire's units even juicer, since they will be carrying lots of gold on their own, which they could drop when K.O'd. If dropping mechanic ain't gonna be implemented, then they could just deliver the gold to Inhibitor/Treasury which later could be retrieved when those rooms are claimed/destroyed by any player.

3. Empire could periodically pay player a visit. Those visits would consist of harassing parties where player expects the least if there is a digger ( in other words making a new tunnel to player ) or attacking player where he is exposed. This would put extra risk on player since he will have to protect himself from Empire, no more safe sitting behind own walls. With some logic manipulations heroes could be either smart or reckless ( aka aggressiveness bar or something like that ), where they would retreat if outnumbered/wounded or fight till death against traps with ramparts. Option to make Empire units or party members capture possible will be required, so player doesn't get huge army of Empire units or specific types of them.

4. Empire could craft own traps. What would be more fun and challenging than Empire that does replenish it's ranks and also fortify it's outpost/castle? With this, Empire could place a handful of traps that would offer extra protection ( number of traps available could vary, also an interval between placing traps could be added, so Empire doesn't suddenly build lots of traps out of nowhere ). As for where traps could be placed - near rooms, treasury or inhibitor. If no such rooms are available, then traps could be placed randomly on nearest Empire controlled territory.

5. Allow Empire build Rooms. Now before you say why and no let me explain how would this work. Every X seconds ( X defined by player ) Empire would build a room ( could be dug out near inhibitor or just somewhere else ), using pre-defined build order ( decided by player ). The idea behind this is, you could make heroes build rooms that are not available otherwise ( like Torture Chamber or Prison ), so players would have another reason to go for these rooms. You may say - why not pre-make such room and give it to Empire from Start? This is to prevent players from rushing for this room. Players will have time to expand their dungeon, claim stuff and wait. As soon as room is made, players could go for it. If you will allow Randomizer of some sort, then it could allow Empire build a random room out of list instead ( the amount of rooms could be defined so Empire doesn't build non-stop ), so it would add some luck factor into the game ( Empire could build either expensive rooms or just cheap ones ).

I have some other ideas in mind which I believe could make maps with Empire in it more interesting and dynamic, but those depend on how much attention will be dedicated to Empire faction in common.
 
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Likes: Skorp

Valtiel

Priestess
Aug 28, 2014
94
41
205
35
#18
Some cute ideas there, but I think that's getting a bit too close to the Empire behaving too much like another Underlord. All it really needs to be able to do is defend itself and attack Underlords.

I do, however, like the idea of being able to use heroes and Empire dungeons on custom maps, and to control or script their behaviour to some extent (maybe as simple as switching the Empire AI between completely defensive, scouting/harassing, and all-out you-die-now aggression in response to certain triggers).
 
Jan 3, 2013
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741
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#19
Well, I see no reason why Empire units can't perform certain things. They have all required creatures for special tasks and could be more complex instead of being quite a nuisance and sometimes useless.
 

AvatarIII

Ember Demon
WFTO Founder
Apr 20, 2012
1,713
759
555
34
Worthing, West Sussex
#20
well iirc every empire unit can do a job, Fire-breathers can work the alchemy lab, Priestesses the archive, Juggernauts the foundry etc. you could potentially have a fully functioning dungeon with only Empire units.
 
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