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WFTO Wednesday #123: Balancing Act

Jul 25, 2014
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Parts Unknown
#5
Replacement Earth
  • Increased gold cost from 400 to 1000
Changing the cost of replacement earth to 250% of current seems... what's the word(s).... effing excessive. However, the tooltip change is awesome.
 

Nutter

Frost Weaver
WFTO Founder
Jan 19, 2013
2,453
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Huddersfield, UK
nutter666.tumblr.com
#6
Replacement Earth
  • Increased gold cost from 400 to 1000
Changing the cost of replacement earth to 250% of current seems... what's the word(s).... effing excessive. However, the tooltip change is awesome.
It got spammed too much, meaning it was actually far more powerful than anyone expected/intended. The ability to lock down the path of empire groups, and then just spam lightning on their dwarf diggers, etc... So basically this is to counter that.
 

Psycix

Dryad
WFTO Founder
Jan 9, 2013
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#7
Although increasing the cost is probably a good thing, it doesn't solve the problem of zapping the dwarf diggers at all. Would be better off buffing the diggers, increasing their movespeed and especially dig rate.
 
Jul 25, 2014
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Parts Unknown
#8
"It got spammed too much, meaning it was actually far more powerful than anyone expected/intended. The ability to lock down the path of empire groups, and then just spam lightning on their dwarf diggers, etc... So basically this is to counter that."
It doesn't counter that at all in the campaign; however, it does nerf the transmutation potion.
 
Likes: Yiannis

Electrolight

Bafu
WFTO Backer
Jan 6, 2013
211
44
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#10
Replacement Earth
  • Increased gold cost from 400 to 1000
I really don't like that you increased the cost of Replacement Earth as that is something I use regularly from the start and not just for defense purposes but to make my dungeon neat and tidy. This will severely hurt me as the level I am on is the level where you have to protect some weak ally underlord who's imps keep digging up my dungeon which forces me to replace the walls they dig.

These changes will help to increase the defensive effectiveness of walls when paired with a nearby Garrison.
I think a better thing to do would be to adjust the cost "if" they are paired with a Garrison, non defensive uses should just cost 400.



Replacement Earth is literally a childhood dream come true, quit messing with it!
 
Last edited:

L.E.N.

Blood Imp
May 14, 2015
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#11
I remember there was some bug where upon loading a game, the *graphics* of the defences would not load appropriately with their mode (i.e. suppose I loaded a game where I had a bombard set to "overdrive", the tooltip/highlight showed that it was operating in an "alternate" mode but the graphics wasn't that of a "burning" cannon but rather the normal one... Had to click it twice to get the correct one)... Was this fixed?
 

RedBat

Dwarven Worker
Apr 14, 2015
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#12
I really don't like that you increased the cost of Replacement Earth as that is something I use regularly from the start and not just for defense purposes but to make my dungeon neat and tidy. This will severely hurt me as the level I am on is the level where you have to protect some weak ally underlord who's imps keep digging up my dungeon which forces me to replace the walls they dig.



I think a better thing to do would be to adjust the cost "if" they are paired with a Garrison, non defensive uses should just cost 400.



Replacement Earth is literally a childhood dream come true, quit messing with it!
I like the increased cost. It's to easy as it is now just to select and dig out and then later use "RE" to fix it.
I like my dungeons tidy as well, but i also like when you have to carefully select where to dig, and later on eventually fix it with "RE".

Also i think the game should be focused on skirmish and multiplayer mostly, not campaign. Just my thoughts :)
 

Underlord Vulukai

Witch Doctor
WFTO Backer
Mar 11, 2013
666
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The Void
www.youtube.com
#13
yeah, the RE price change adds more weight to your digging decisions, and anything that affects your decision making process in that way is something i will support. If you make a mistake with where you go, you shouldn't be able to just slap a bandaid on it like you do now where its "Oh, i broke this wall, its just a little scratch", its should feel more like "Oh crap i just cut one of my fingers off, i know i can reattach it but i really need to get it on ice and then get to the doctor"
 
Likes: Reyh!
Jul 25, 2014
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Parts Unknown
#14
yeah, the RE price change adds more weight to your digging decisions, and anything that affects your decision making process in that way is something i will support. If you make a mistake with where you go, you shouldn't be able to just slap a bandaid on it like you do now where its "Oh, i broke this wall, its just a little scratch", its should feel more like "Oh crap i just cut one of my fingers off, i know i can reattach it but i really need to get it on ice and then get to the doctor"
Then how about they raise the stakes and make it 100,000 per tile for replacement earth? The change affects things beyond "broken walls", and even if it didn't, the increase is excessive.
 
Apr 28, 2014
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#15
In my opinion the increase is right.

400 gold is nothing, you can just spam it everywhere without thinking about it.

1000 Gold is a good price to replace broken walls. You need to think if its neccessary to fix the breach or go to "worker war" or attack or build defences.

So I think its a good change, while of course nerfs are mostly unpopular changes
 
Nov 13, 2013
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#17
While I do think that it is fine for the cost of replacement earth to be increased, I really think this cost increase should only be done in addition to a cost increase and/or a nerf of the underminer. The underminer is already a very powerful and cheap wrath tool that is a big part of why aggression is more powerful then defensive play, and this change to replacement earth will just increase the already heavy gold burden placed on defensive players.
 
Likes: Beneathar
Jan 3, 2013
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#18
While I do think that it is fine for the cost of replacement earth to be increased, I really think this cost increase should only be done in addition to a cost increase and/or a nerf of the underminer. The underminer is already a very powerful and cheap wrath tool that is a big part of why aggression is more powerful then defensive play, and this change to replacement earth will just increase the already heavy gold burden placed on defensive players.
Wraith playstyle actually needs a buff because it's meant to be based around fast attack with beasts, which was meant to be ''Mostly Wraith'' thing. Unfortunately, Beasts are now available from start for both Wraith and Sloth players, which means Wraith won't have any sort of advantage until he unlocks underminer, which can also be unlocked by Sloth player if there are many neutral goods out there. Basically there's nothing Wraith can excel over Sloth player, while Sloth can always have a plan B, based around tactically placed defenses.
 
Apr 28, 2014
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#19
Wraith playstyle actually needs a buff because it's meant to be based around fast attack with beasts, which was meant to be ''Mostly Wraith'' thing. Unfortunately, Beasts are now available from start for both Wraith and Sloth players, which means Wraith won't have any sort of advantage until he unlocks underminer, which can also be unlocked by Sloth player if there are many neutral goods out there. Basically there's nothing Wraith can excel over Sloth player, while Sloth can always have a plan B, based around tactically placed defenses.
I think what ypu say points to the total opposite of what you mean.

Warth is, in fact, so totally OP that Sloth players don't have the choice to concentrate on their own vein, but need to put sins into wrath to be competitive. Wrath players can do progress on their own vein instead, and will progress much faster on this than Sloth players can manage it on their own vein. So Wrath players will always have their strong sins (like Arena, upgraded beast den, Underminer etc.) much earlier than sloth players can unlock the counters (Garrison, Augrum Wall, better traps, construction ritual), so wrath players will be in advantage over sloth players in the mid-game. Having a Beast Den is mostly an advantage for Sloth players in the beginning, to be not totally helpless gainst beast rushes, wich they would be if they do not unlock beast Den.

You see, Wrath does not need a buff, its so strong that even sloth players are forced to research in warth rather soon, not only because of Den and Underminer, wich are very powerful, but also because of the prophecy spell. this are minimum 3 Sins, sloth players NEED to spend before they can get Slothy things, wich are much less usefull in the early veins.

Even warth players can use tactical defenses in the mid-game when unlocking the foundry at any time and maybe the blade lotus, but they are not forced to do so like sloth players are.

Changes to balance this would be not easy to make, and I have no really good idea how to manage that, but buffing the Wrath tree is definitely the opposite of what we need. What we need is not to force every sloth player to tech into the much stronger wrath tree.
 

Underlord Vulukai

Witch Doctor
WFTO Backer
Mar 11, 2013
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The Void
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#20
i think a very simple fix for this would be to line up Augrum walls within the same line as the Underminer, but change it so that a fully reinforced Augrum wall can actually withstand the blast of an underminer, instead taking the total amount of damage that a normally fully upgraded wall would take. Therefore its still a large boost if you're busting through, or the use of multiple underminers could have the same effect (for the cost associated of course)

Thats just my two cents on it. More or less as it stands though, there is still no realistic need to opt into augrum walls when an underminer is going to rip through them just as easily as a normal wall. im sure underminer mechanics as they are now would not allow for this balance change though, since they seem to only destroy the surrounding blocks in the radius and not actually deal digging damage to those blocks (because of the nature of brimstone im sure)

The only way i could see remedying this is by making brimstone unaffectable by normal digging and have a check against underminer 'dig' damage sources for whether or not it should effect its health pool
 
Likes: Psycix
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