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WFTO Wednesday #124: Nine Tenths of the Law

Linny

Priestess
Founder
Nov 30, 2012
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#6
Great work guys! Love that you are working on possession one of my favorite things. (i'd like to feel like I helped with my post :p)

My feelings on the video, obviously i haven't played yet.

Great looking cameras, the custom feel of the units is exactly what was needed, claws for beast things and other in-view objects are 100% necessary, nice one.

Feedback on the unit being hit was noticeable on the occulus hitting the priest (lightning effects) but not so much on the beast attacks.
Please add flashing to their hp-flower when they get hit, this made it feel as if you are actually doing something in dk2.

The target reticule: Is it me or in the video, the occulus player doesn't even aim at the priest but still hits him. Kind of pointless to have the reticule then ?


Now we just need possession to give you a buff to possessed-creature stats aka strength/attackspeed whatever. Due to the massive debuff you get by not being able to oversee anything, without a buff to stats or some kind of advantage, possession is pointless.

Carry on the good work guys! :) xxx
 
Likes: ylsid

Lord of Riva

The Lord
Founder
Dec 29, 2012
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#10
Now we just need possession to give you a buff to possessed-creature stats aka strength/attackspeed whatever. Due to the massive debuff you get by not being able to oversee anything, without a buff to stats or some kind of advantage, possession is pointless.
this wont happen as this lead to a lot of exploits in other DMGs at least if nothing in the direction changes
 

Nutter

Frost Weaver
Founder
Jan 19, 2013
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Huddersfield, UK
nutter666.tumblr.com
#11
this wont happen as this lead to a lot of exploits in other DMGs at least if nothing in the direction changes
Surely a much better option would be to display (a smaller version of) the minimap within the possession screen. Then you're only trading away the ability to use spells/potions, etc in return for direct control. And not losing total overview vision too.
 

Linny

Priestess
Founder
Nov 30, 2012
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#12
this wont happen as this lead to a lot of exploits in other DMGs at least if nothing in the direction changes
By exploits you mean being too powerful ? Or something else ?

I don't want there to be any insane scenarios, just that possession should give SOMETHING for what you are trading when you use it.

Surely a much better option would be to display (a smaller version of) the minimap within the possession screen. Then you're only trading away the ability to use spells/potions, etc in return for direct control. And not losing total overview vision too.
Well... sure but that's boring. I think the whole point of possession is that you lose your awareness but are a stronger mob (that the enemy can see is being possessed)
Another thing is that there is basically 0 point to possession unless you are stronger, you can't do anything other than attack, the best thing you can do is attack an objective while ignoring enemy minions for e.g.
My third point is you don't just trade away spell/potion use, you can't build anything, upgrade, train (in the pit), research, make new potions, flank enemies, dig into their base from another route, etc.... possession needs to give you another kind of advantage or there is no point in it at all.
 
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Likes: Psycix
Jan 3, 2013
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#13
You could actually rework possession so it would allow you form a group of creatures or maybe cast some spells like heal or lightning. You could also issue Rally Flags while possessed, I guess that would make it fair, rather than buff it so you can slaughter entire army of enemy creatures in the blob.
 

Nutter

Frost Weaver
Founder
Jan 19, 2013
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#14
By exploits you mean being too powerful ? Or something else ?

I don't want there to be any insane scenario's, just that possession should give SOMETHING for what you are trading when you use it.



Well... sure but that's boring. I think the whole point of possession is that you lose your awareness but are a stronger mob (that the enemy can see is being possessed)
Another thing is that there is basically 0 point to possession unless you are stronger, you can't do anything other than attack, the best thing you can do is attack an objective while ignoring enemy minions for e.g.
My third point is you don't just trade away spell/potion use, you can't build anything, upgrade, train (in the pit), research, make new potions, flank enemies, dig into their base from another route, etc.... possession needs to give you another kind of advantage or there is no point in it at all.

You're already "stronger" by being able to use your abilities intelligently (outside of the unit's AI), focus on the targets you want and generally by being in control as opposed to the AI controlling it. You don't need an attack power boost or a cooldown reduction or something to be stronger.
 

Linny

Priestess
Founder
Nov 30, 2012
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#15
You're already "stronger" by being able to use your abilities intelligently (outside of the unit's AI), focus on the targets you want and generally by being in control as opposed to the AI controlling it. You don't need an attack power boost or a cooldown reduction or something to be stronger.
Well currently possession is basically useless, i don't see that "using your abilities intelligently" makes any difference, all you do in these games is cast them as much as possible, I don't think there will be a single time where you actually have to think about where to use your abilities.
In fact, in most people's cases (casual players) having to use your abilities on your own will make you LESS strong than AI, because they always use them asap and in the right way.
Not to mention that on a bunch of the monsters i've possessed, i've been using their alt abilities without the faintest idea of what they do. Assumedly the icons and abilities are going to be sorted later so not that worried about that.

I did mention being able to focus on targets you want, that's a definite bonus yeah. However it's still definitely not worth it just for this, you aren't going to be even able to for e.g. 2v1 the same type of unit because you are exactly the same strength.
Honestly, doesn't it just make sense in a lore kind of way anyway ? You are infusing your giant omnipresent consciousness/spirit with a mere mortal being, surely he would be stronger!

You could actually rework possession so it would allow you form a group of creatures or maybe cast some spells like heal or lightning. You could also issue Rally Flags while possessed, I guess that would make it fair, rather than buff it so you can slaughter entire army of enemy creatures in the blob.
I like this idea, if you don't want to go down the route of buffing the creature while P'd, which is a less interesting option anyway, something along the lines of strategical buffs would be great.
Some ideas:
  • Have a marker of where the enemies dungeon heart is (like a ghost trail to follow to get to it) either if you know where it is directly already, or maybe even if you don't and it activates whenever you are on their immediate domain.
  • Be able to *extra* research a spell to take into possession with you, heal, lightning, summon ghouls or whatever. Make it cost more mana, or have a large cooldown/additional cost. Gives you ability to use one spell while not in your domain, but you have to be in P mode.
  • Groups and rally flags would/should be mandatory anyway to be honest.
  • Ability to take a few potions with you, e.g. whatever 3 potions you are holding when you possess someone you can then use from your P minion.
  • Ability to dig with whoever you possess ? I dunno might seem a tad overpowered on this one as imps are pretty weak when you P them. Maybe you dig slower if you aren't an imp, and you can only dig dirt no claimed walls or anything.
 

Nutter

Frost Weaver
Founder
Jan 19, 2013
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#16
Examples of being able to use abilities intelligently to your advantage.. off the top of my head:

  • Speed digging/tunneling with worker imps, the ability can be used quicker in possession than they do it themselves.
  • Shadow's Blink and Skarg's Lunge could be used to dodge/escape an ability/attack
  • I'm pretty sure Skarg's Lunge can also be used to "jump" over chasms, although that's un-tested, but one of the coders told me once in theory it should be possible.
  • Frost Weavers Freezing attack (forgot it's name) on a fleeing minion rather than just the closest/biggest threat.
I'll add some more as I think of them
 

Linny

Priestess
Founder
Nov 30, 2012
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#17
Examples of being able to use abilities intelligently to your advantage.. off the top of my head:

  • Speed digging/tunneling with worker imps, the ability can be used quicker in possession than they do it themselves.
  • Shadow's Blink and Skarg's Lunge could be used to dodge/escape an ability/attack
  • I'm pretty sure Skarg's Lunge can also be used to "jump" over chasms, although that's un-tested, but one of the coders told me once in theory it should be possible.
  • Frost Weavers Freezing attack (forgot it's name) on a fleeing minion rather than just the closest/biggest threat.
I'll add some more as I think of them

Workers yes, but possessing workers is where you do actually get some benefit, and not like being stronger would help as a worker anyway :). I'm talking about combat possession.

Blink/lunge "could" dodge attacks, its quite difficult to see where attacks are hitting at the moment. Also is the fact that you are usually going to be in a big scrum and not 1v1 (where you can probably juke anyway without abilities). Not to mention that it doesn't really matter if you "die" in P you can just P another mob. I see what you mean but i don't think 99% of people are going to be trying to dodge attacks with one of their abilities.

Using freeze or mind control or whatever else that disables a unit is a lot more useful while player controlled certainly, I did think about that. Again though, if you use your freeze on a fleeing minion instead of a big threat, the big threat is going to kill you before you can capitulate because you don't have any extra durability or damage or anything. It's probably better just to freeze the big one and try to chase the fleeing one (although both are probably the same speed)

Jumping over chasms sounds pretty cool, that would be a good side "buff" to add to the list i was talking about above. That's something the unit cannot actually do unless you P it.
 

Nutter

Frost Weaver
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Jan 19, 2013
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#18
Workers yes, but possessing workers is where you do actually get some benefit, and not like being stronger would help as a worker anyway :). I'm talking about combat possession.

Blink/lunge "could" dodge attacks, its quite difficult to see where attacks are hitting at the moment. Also is the fact that you are usually going to be in a big scrum and not 1v1 (where you can probably juke anyway without abilities). Not to mention that it doesn't really matter if you "die" in P you can just P another mob. I see what you mean but i don't think 99% of people are going to be trying to dodge attacks with one of their abilities.
Currently the Shadow's Blink ability doesn't work properly in possession due to the way it was coded (it moves to the next stop in it's AI generated movement paths, which obviously don't exist when you're controlling it so it basically does nothing), but I believe the current intention is to make the possession version, jump X tiles in the direction you're facing.. now obviously that can be used in a variety of ways, if you're about to die for example.. blinking as you're fleeing is clearly going to help put distance between you and the chasing enemies.

If you see a bombard firing and the cannonball is coming your way, you could with a little practice, blink straight "past" it, dodging the cannonball and getting close enough to attack it more safely than the AI could/would.

Making good use of possession is about using it intelligently, looking for clever things you can do with it, such as jumping over chasms to reach areas you wouldn't be able to normally, etc.
 

Linny

Priestess
Founder
Nov 30, 2012
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#19
Currently the Shadow's Blink ability doesn't work properly in possession due to the way it was coded (it moves to the next stop in it's AI generated movement paths, which obviously don't exist when you're controlling it so it basically does nothing), but I believe the current intention is to make the possession version, jump X tiles in the direction you're facing.. now obviously that can be used in a variety of ways, if you're about to die for example.. blinking as you're fleeing is clearly going to help put distance between you and the chasing enemies.

If you see a bombard firing and the cannonball is coming your way, you could with a little practice, blink straight "past" it, dodging the cannonball and getting close enough to attack it more safely than the AI could/would.

Making good use of possession is about using it intelligently, looking for clever things you can do with it, such as jumping over chasms to reach areas you wouldn't be able to normally, etc.
Definitely.
I think you are right, but I believe that possession needs benefits beyond just being able to use abilities smart !

Good discussion :)
 

Psycix

Dryad
Founder
Jan 9, 2013
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#20
Again this is a unit-cap problem.

With 40 creatures, possessing one means you're possessing 2,5% of your army while 97,5% of your creatures are lingering without control or overwatch.
Even if possessing a creature would make it three times as effective I'd still think it isn't worth it. There is no such thing as an individual unit it WftO, there is only the blob and the bigger blob.
 
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