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WFTO Wednesday #15

Tommonius

Necromancer
WFTO Backer
Dec 15, 2012
616
247
415
31
Wolverhampton
It was not good. I would not advise buying it...
Unless you have a wood-chipper you are going to throw it into.
okay thanks for the heads up, a quick glance at youtube shows me I have to go out of my way to make my dungeon entertaining and make them happy so I can harvest soul power which sounds dumb...

I mean why not simply capture them and then rip out ALL the soul and keep it all?

I ask you fellow overlords is that such a crime really??? Plus why do you need soul power to build up your dungeon, why not have minions do all the back breaking labour and threaten some interior decorators to do the work or throw their next of kin in my newly renovated snake pit.
 

Amon

Ember Demon
Apr 14, 2012
2,267
812
540
24
Somewhere
subterraneangames.com
okay thanks for the heads up, a quick glance at youtube shows me I have to go out of my way to make my dungeon entertaining and make them happy so I can harvest soul power which sounds dumb...

I mean why not simply capture them and then rip out ALL the soul and keep it all?

I ask you fellow overlords is that such a crime really??? Plus why do you need soul power to build up your dungeon, why not have minions do all the back breaking labour and threaten some interior decorators to do the work or throw their next of kin in my newly renovated snake pit.
Yeah. Dumb minions, have to look after the Heroes (stuff that), lack of proper rooms, Dungeon Lord. The only thing I liked was the Dark Lord campaign prologue. THAT was funny. It is just the rest of the game that sucked.
 

Medjay

Shadow
WFTO Backer
Aug 23, 2012
1,095
491
485
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Canterbury
Okay, I must admit, alternatives to Dungeon Heart/Core/Nexus are difficult to find without losing any meaning whatsoever. However since we are moving away from 'Dungeon Heart' concept anyway, I guess there is no harm in suggesting some original names which may not necessarily reflect the original 'connection concept', but could still be original and 'cool' in the same way the dungeon heart was for DK.

Although functionality of the original Dungeon Heart could remain the same, perhaps these names may still be useful:
-Soul Stone (something of a monolith, made of stone, which is made to represent the soul of the Underlord)
-Dark Stone (similar to above, just a different take on the name)
-Dark Rift (perhaps a evil looking, pulsating, implosive void which could have links to the visual appearance of mana . This could be quite appropriate if you can still throw (blood)imps back for mana)
-Well of Evil (could be styled as a large well of unsettled dark liquid) <--> although I'm not sure about this personally, depends how it would end up looking visually

Clearly, the idea of creating an entirely new iconic subterranean landmark is down to whether you guys could accept the possibility of a shift away from the original Dungeon Heart to something new (but also, hopeful, totally unique). Of course, these are just some suggestions off the top of my head. That said, I am not sure whether some of them are any more iconic than 'Dungeon Core', so I would be interested to know what you all think of such a concept.


Also, just come up with a 'hot off the press' idea. What if each underlord was to have a 'stone' instead of a dungeon heart. If the underlord is blood related, his dungeon heart equivalent could be called a 'Blood Stone'. If the underlord was death related, he might have a 'Soul Stone; for a stealth related underlord, perhaps a 'Shadow Stone'; for a demonic related underlord, perhaps a 'Corruption Stone'...and so on. Again, not sure what you guys would think of this idea, especially since I am not entirely convinced myself yet o_O

:)

Just a few ideas to feast upon, although I am not necessarily suggesting these are any better or worse than Dungeon Core/Nexus, only a different approach which I feel may make WftO's most important piece of architectural a little more unique.
 

Jobs2k

Skarg
WFTO Backer
Dec 29, 2012
390
149
365
Stevenage, England
www.minecraftforum.net
I can't even begin to explain my shock at reading about the Dungeon Heart going. Something like that changing... I just can't conceive...

In an effort to move on, I thought about why the news shocked me so much. I came to the conclusion that the name helped pull me into the game, connect with its concept, feel its pain.
"Feel its pain? What are you on about Jobs?"

I only played DK2 (I know, I'll probably get hate-mail now! :)) and when I heard "Your Dungeon heart is under attack!" I honestly jumped every time. I would then race the camera to my heart as fast as possible, sometimes with creatures/gold still clasped in my evil (now very clammy) palm thinking "get every creature back here now! I don't care if the bloody Imps are digging, get them here NOW!"

This made me run each possible new name through the same theoretical filter:
"Your [name here] is under attack!" ... Would that make me jump to its rescue as readily?

The results of the ones I liked, plus Nexus which I don't:
Dungeon Core = "Shit! Really? Grab the minions, they have work to do!"
Dark Rift = "I'm on it! Where is that Call To Arms spell when you need it!?"
The Bloodstone = "Seriously!? I need that blood (or I did until the entire concept got thrown out of the window) to maintain my dungeon!"
Nexus = "Well that's a bugger." - It just doesn't have the same urgency to pull you in and I don't think Mr Ridings would be able to force it.

I know there will be an entirely new script for WFTO and things are going to be fresh and exciting, but you ask anyone to say a sentence with the words 'heart' and 'attack' in it and they will automatically feel an urgency that will come through in their words. The same for things that relate to a form of life-force; blood, artery, soul... even to some extent, core.

Dungeon Core is my vote. I do feel it should be two words as the full name but could be shortened in things like narration where appropriate.
EDIT: I can just imagine the tutorial...
"This, Underlord, is your dungeon's Core. It is the place where all your unholy power congregates and its destruction will dispel you from this place. Protect it well and reap the benefits!"
 

HermanK

Templar
WFTO Backer
Mar 2, 2013
118
44
235
34
South Africa
I get the concern over using dungeon heart. SG cannot afford lawsuits right now.
Who will pay for the lawyers? the backers i guess:eek: .
EA have the resources to squash this project with litigation even if they don't have a case, so it is best and safest to avoid similarities. EA clearly didn't sue over "Dungeons" because it was apples vs oranges. WFTO to me is more a case of a yellow apple vs a red apple.
when this game sells like i think it's going to - don't think EA won't take notice.
I find it very interesting (unbelievable) that EA have been so "supportive" according to the dev's. Are we talking about the same company here? I think they are smelling royalties.
 
Likes: Castigator

Evi

Shadow
WFTO Backer
Nov 14, 2011
665
372
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Hm... Spider Theme, what would you call the /core,heart,nexus/ when it's a giant dormant spider?

Calling it a Heart wouldn't make much sense, unless the abdomen is really large. ...And throbs with a heart-beat.
Core doesn't appeal to me, something about that word just... Bores me. With something so boring, I'd let anyone destroy it.

I'm more inclined to lean towards <DarkEvilChaoticHerpaDerpDoomPowerBoundStumpy> Nexus.

Unless you call it the Dungeon Willy.
Now that I'll rush to protect.
 
Likes: Fourteen00

AvatarIII

Ember Demon
WFTO Founder
Apr 20, 2012
1,713
759
555
34
Worthing, West Sussex
I can't even begin to explain my shock at reading about the Dungeon Heart going. Something like that changing... I just can't conceive...

In an effort to move on, I thought about why the news shocked me so much. I came to the conclusion that the name helped pull me into the game, connect with its concept, feel its pain.
"Feel its pain? What are you on about Jobs?"

I only played DK2 (I know, I'll probably get hate-mail now! :)) and when I heard "Your Dungeon heart is under attack!" I honestly jumped every time. I would then race the camera to my heart as fast as possible, sometimes with creatures/gold still clasped in my evil (now very clammy) palm thinking "get every creature back here now! I don't care if the bloody Imps are digging, get them here NOW!"

This made me run each possible new name through the same theoretical filter:
"Your [name here] is under attack!" ... Would that make me jump to its rescue as readily?

The results of the ones I liked, plus Nexus which I don't:
Dungeon Core = "Shit! Really? Grab the minions, they have work to do!"
Dark Rift = "I'm on it! Where is that Call To Arms spell when you need it!?"
The Bloodstone = "Seriously!? I need that blood (or I did until the entire concept got thrown out of the window) to maintain my dungeon!"
Nexus = "Well that's a bugger." - It just doesn't have the same urgency to pull you in and I don't think Mr Ridings would be able to force it.

I know there will be an entirely new script for WFTO and things are going to be fresh and exciting, but you ask anyone to say a sentence with the words 'heart' and 'attack' in it and they will automatically feel an urgency that will come through in their words. The same for things that relate to a form of life-force; blood, artery, soul... even to some extent, core.

Dungeon Core is my vote. I do feel it should be two words as the full name but could be shortened in things like narration where appropriate.
EDIT: I can just imagine the tutorial...
"This, Underlord, is your dungeon's Core. It is the place where all your unholy power congregates and its destruction will dispel you from this place. Protect it well and reap the benefits!"
The main problem I see with all your ideas here is that all the ones you say you like sound to specific, the whole point of this exercise is to find a catch all word for all dungeon hearts.

I like Nexus, but I prefer Core, but how about "Dungeon Source" or how about a made up word like "Nexum" "Centrus" or "Centrum"
 

HermanK

Templar
WFTO Backer
Mar 2, 2013
118
44
235
34
South Africa
with the options thrown around presently i think dungeon core will prevail as the most popular, however, i think we need more suggestions. something that will articulate that link between the ether and physical dungeon. I would like to think of the dungeon heart as a "projector". it physically projects the actions you make in the ether onto the physical world. similarly in the real world when you play a game your physical actions are projected onto a screen.
I have the following suggestions:

The Projector (with perhaps a faint but noticeable link between the core and the hand of evil)
The Atlas/Globe (which could look like a mini-version of the controlled map in the shape of a crystal ball)

Nexus doesn't do anything for me. dungeon core is OK. but i would love to see other suggestions. I'm sure the name "dungeon heart" took quite a lot of brainstorming some years back. I'm sure we can do better.
 

Jobs2k

Skarg
WFTO Backer
Dec 29, 2012
390
149
365
Stevenage, England
www.minecraftforum.net
[...]the whole point of this exercise is to find a catch all word for all dungeon hearts.
Yeah, I see your point but I just can't think of anything that would pull me into the game anywhere near as much. Maybe it will be one of those things that will all fall into place, indeed I hope that is exactly what happens. Until then I will feel a little apprehensive over this change. Everything else to this point has made sense and the game looked as though it was shaping up really nicely.
It feels like one of the devs woke up randomly and said "nope, half of the core game is wrong. We're changing it!" It's a bit of a shock when you feel like you have a pretty complete picture in your head and you realise how much of that picture hung on one little hook... that is then removed.
I like Nexus, but I prefer Core, but how about "Dungeon Source" or how about a made up word like "Nexum" "Centrus" or "Centrum"
The thing I'm seeing (and this might easily just be me) is that the single syllable words are the ones that can convey a sense of urgency.
As I stated before, I am fully aware that a completely new script will be written for WFTO. Even so, there aren't many ways that you can write an alert telling someone that their mission-critical-component (I don't recommend this as the new name! ;)) is under attack. The only other option would be some sort of audio signal like a bell or alarm but I can't see the SG team considering that for very long, if they ever did.

This brings me back to running all possible new terms through my filter and imagining it said in Mr Ridings voice.
Your suggestions are good in general but the only one that doesn't feel 'clunky' at the very moment they need to convey urgency is Nexum. That's too close to Nexus for me and I won't like being 'moaned at' that it is being attacked.

It's a difficult thing to find a balance with and I know that it must be creating a great deal of tension for the entire team now that the community has become so divided over not only the change itself, but also their choice of replacement terminology. I don't envy their position right now and I still have confidence that they will make the right choices over all. Plus the great thing about it all is that they are active here and truly want to listen. I still find myself amazed by that fact and know that it will help the game be the success it should be.

I'm sure the name "dungeon heart" took quite a lot of brainstorming some years back. I'm sure we can do better.
I don't think it would have been that difficult if they had named it along with developing the concept of the dungeon. It was the centre of the dungeon... and if it was destroyed: Game over.
The centre of your dungeon, that once destroyed will end your game (end that life in older games) ... it's a heart! "The heart of the player's dungeon. A Dungeon Heart! We can make it beat like a heart as well!" It fits perfectly for the premise.
 

Krueger

Priestess
Dec 31, 2012
26
22
215
South Africa
I honestly do not mind them giving the game it's own set of names and lore though there reasoning has confused me, claiming they are dropping the blood resource and going back to mana and they are not using the word heart as they are not pushing for an organic style dungeon, but the dungeon heart was only called heart due to the beating in the games and DK1 was very unorganic so I admit the logic confuses me but not the concept of renaming.

ALso whenever someone mentions nexus, I imagine a large cube with glowing runes spinning around as my dungeon heart and I got no idea where I have picked that up from or what game/ tv series put that idea in my mind.. it will bother me all day :/

Also I do not mind the blood being changed back to mana either, just got to trust the developers on this.
I think both of us watched the same tv series or played the same game, because that's exactly how I picture a "Nexus". a Beating Heart with Blood instead of Mana would make this game unique, and don't think Electronic Farts could do anything about it. But I'm not into copyright/trademark law so I wouldn't know.

Kalypso got away with using "Dungeon heart", but then again, Dungeons is a totally different style of game. Don't even know the genre, I just know I didn't enjoy it, especially with all the false advertising around it.

I believe that throwing away the heart and replacing it with a crystal/tree/stone/soul/core/portal/statue/balls would ruin the game for most people, and the game will definitely loose some of that Evilness the DK series had. Just the thought of a dungeon with a beating heart is Evil as hell!

Can you image RR saying "Your Nexus is under attack" or "Your Dungeon Balls are under attack" ??

Don't think anything can Beat a Dungeon Heart at Evilness (Pun intended)

EDIT: Whoops! It's only a name change then? In that case I can live with that... :p Thanks Noontide.
 

Noontide

Designer / Community Manager
Brightrock Games
Dec 8, 2012
2,168
1,785
665
Brighton, UK
Everything else to this point has made sense and the game looked as though it was shaping up really nicely.
It feels like one of the devs woke up randomly and said "nope, half of the core game is wrong. We're changing it!" It's a bit of a shock when you feel like you have a pretty complete picture in your head and you realise how much of that picture hung on one little hook... that is then removed.
.
Well it's not like the Dungeon Hearts are really going anywhere, there will still be a couple of Underlords using Dungeon Hearts as their central wotsit they just won't be referred to globally as Dungeon hearts for every Underlord. So there will be Dungeon Hearts and they may well be reffered to as a Dungeon Heart but that will not be the name used for every central thingymajib.

This change is just a change to that global name there's no changes to the gameplay here pretty much everything mentioned in the update is essentially aesthetic changes. The move away from blood though there will still be a blood theme/ Underlord means that we'll probably see something different as the player Underlord in the base campaign.

So it's not as if Josh woke up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat thinking I MUST REMOVE DUNGEON HEARTS AND CHANGE THE GAME! ;) No the gameplay is going to remain the same, this is just to distance the game from the term Dungeon Heart by moving it away from the forefront. That's not to say Josh doesn't spend his time waking up in cold sweats thinking with terrible dreams of a cat controlling his very existence. :eek:

I believe that throwing away the heart and replacing it with a crystal/tree/stone/soul/core/portal/statue/balls would ruin the game for most people, and the game will definitely loose some of that Evilness the DK series had. Just the thought of a dungeon with a beating heart is Evil as hell!
As said above the Heart is not being thrown away, the terminology is being moved away from the forefront of the game. But yes we will no doubt see more variety in what the thingy wotsit me bob is in the center of your dungeon but I have no doubt it'll feel as vile and evil as the Dungeon Heart or I will eat my own hat. Right after I buy my own hat!

I'd be dissapointed though if a simple name change ruins the game for most people.

So let's move forward with it and offer constructive advise on how to proceed :)
 
Likes: Fourteen00

Enjou

Ember Demon
WFTO Backer
Jan 10, 2012
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Well, I think I've finally gone through all the stages of nerd rage - shock, denial, rage, arguing, more rage and more arguing, "f**k it", and acceptance. I still don't like it, but I guess we have to move on. I think the big thing we need in the new name is that it needs to sound evil - Nexus by itself doesn't, since that word on it's own doesn't imply anything evil, though if you prefix something onto it then it might work. Hopefully the other thread will give you guys some inspiration and you'll come up with a few good options.
 

Noontide

Designer / Community Manager
Brightrock Games
Dec 8, 2012
2,168
1,785
665
Brighton, UK
This is exactly what happened.
Hush I'm trying to obscure the truth by pretending it's a joke to make you look better! It's business 101!

If you want to share the truth then we'd have to reveal that you woke up from a terrible nightmare about skynet so there is no longer any AI in the game, monsters will simply stand around and starve to death if you do not micromanage every element of their lives and that workers have been removed so that each level is pre-dug with no room for creativity! ;)
 
Likes: Jobs2k
Jan 7, 2012
446
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I think the big thing we need in the new name is that it needs to sound evil - Nexus by itself doesn't, since that word on it's own doesn't imply anything evil, though if you prefix something onto it then it might work.
Dark Nexus!

While im being a bit dissapointed by the name changing-im sure that there will be mods changing it back. (People say the heart of the base,operation usw. it can still be named heart even when its a beating, melon) Also Im really impressed by the last three unit desings, The only things im wondering about if units with very detailed faces like humans, will have some diversity, like a priestess with a different hair colour or a slightly thinner face.
It would look a bit weird if all inquiesitors would have the exact same monkey-eared face (love his grumpy look).
The Chumner has a very lovely desing too (like some of the old dnd weirdo creatures), maybe he could get fatter legs or a third one, because his proportions look unfitting for a game which didnt want to adopt the dk2 style.

Will the bloodling be convertable? It sounded like you just capture them to squeeze the blood out of them until they`re pale and flat...
 

Enjou

Ember Demon
WFTO Backer
Jan 10, 2012
1,315
785
550
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Will the bloodling be convertable? It sounded like you just capture them to squeeze the blood out of them until they`re pale and flat...
Doesn't sound like it, but it sounds like they never go pale and flat either - they're like everlasting gobstoppers. You can torture it all year, and it'll never get any smaller. Endless mana and all you need to do is violently beat the crap out of it and then drag it to your torture chamber and inflict endless pain upon it. I mean, that's not even a price - I'd do the violence and the torture for free!
 
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